Voicing Education

Consciously Educating

How do you lead within educational support services?

Women Leaders / by

This episode explores educational leadership from the perspective of educational support.  As they say, ‘it takes a village to raise a child’. The educational system is an example of this.  There are often many agencies working together to ensure the education, safety and welfare of a child or young person is secure and in place. This is our modern-day village, putting the child at the centre.

Laverne Noel is passionate about her work with young people. She strives to ensure children have access to education despite any potential barriers. Her approach to leadership is a human one, listen, reflect and motivate.

VIEW TRANSCRIPT

Leadership isn’t necessarily going to come easily. So for me the critical thing is, has always been about being able to reflect and also being able to listen and hear what people are saying and take on board what they’re saying, with an open mind.

Educational Support

Laverne Noel

Alternative Provision Manager

Laverne is an Alternative Provision Manager commissioning education for children who, because of Illness, exclusion or other circumstances, cannot access mainstream school settings, she’s currently working in an inner London borough.

Training initially as an Arts manager, she transitioned her work towards supporting young people. She undertook a post graduate diploma in Youth and Community work as well as level 6 Careers Advice. She has supported young people as a Project Manager at the Princess Trust, then undertook a position as a Connexions Personal Advisor moving into management within the service.

Recently she took an interim role as Virtual School Head for looked after children. Her passion lies in educational support, helping and supporting transitions.

As well as her current role she volunteers as a Christians Against Poverty job club coach. 

    Highlights:

    • 04:30 – Alternative Provision v Virtual School
    • 19:15 – Leadership, vision and reflection
    • 22:15 – Listening and motivating people

    Resources:

    Twitter: Alternative Provision hashtag #ThisisAP

    Book: Luck is No Accident: Making the Most of Happenstance in Your Life and Career by John D. Krumbotlz PhD and Al Levin EdD

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    NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

    Kathleen Cushnie 0:06
    Welcome to Voicing Education the podcast, I’m Kathleen Cushnie founder of Voicing Education, a Senior Leader in Education, trainer and coach. My mission is to help new leaders and teachers aspiring to leadership, become confident in their ability to lead others successfully. Whether you’re a new or aspiring leader, this podcast will help you to become confident in your ability to lead others successfully. We discuss key themes in education and personal development and how this can impact educational leadership, let’s move that needle from confusion and overwhelm to clarity and inspiration.

    Laverne Noel, is an Alternative Provision Manager commissioning education for children who, because of illness exclusion or often circumstances, cannot access mainstream school settings. She’s currently working in an inner London borough. Training initially as an artist manager, she transitioned her work towards supporting young people. She undertook a postgraduate diploma in youth and community work, as well as a level six careers advisor. She has supported young people as a project manager at the Prince’s Trust, and undertook a position as a connections personal advisor, moving into management within the service. Recently, she took an interim role as Virtual School head for looked after children. Her passion lies in helping and supporting transitions. As well as a current role, she volunteers as a Christians against poverty job club coach. Hi Laverne, It’s good to have you here with me today is so good actually to have someone that’s from a different aspects of education, because I think, you know, we know so much about you know schools general schools mainstream schools. So it’s really nice to have you here to kind of clarify an understanding for us between virtual schools alternative revision, so welcome. So before we kick off I think it’s really important that we know a little bit about Laverne and who you are and why your work is important.

    Laverne 2:08
    Wow, that’s a big question. So, um, so I’m Laverne as you’re introduced, and I currently work for Southwark local authority as an Alternative Provision Manager. I’ve worked in Southwark for a very very long time, over 10 years, and I’ve, I suppose I’ve done quite a few different roles, but mainly, my interest is working with young people, and looking at their personal development. So, I started off working in Southwark, in a secondary school specifically work with children that maybe were on the edge of exclusion might have had various kind of issues happening at home, but also I worked with children that were on the school council as well so quite a broad range, and I delivered some PSHE sessions as well. So that was kind of like my general work with young people and then I decided to specialise a little bit more, and ended up in Alternative Provision, a bit of a journey.

    Kathleen Cushnie 3:12
    Oh yeah it sounds like an interesting journey actually. So you’ve made… worked in mainstream, and now you’re working in alternative provision. So before we go deeper into this I think it’s really important that we clarify virtual school and alternative provision so can you tell us what’s the difference?

    Laverne 3:28
    So a virtual school is something that the government set up to make sure that every looked after child has an education advisor, and a virtual head. So when I was working in the virtual school I was a Deputy Head and then I acted as a Virtual Head. So the idea of a virtual school is to make sure that all that talk to children achieve on par with their peers. So, looked after child typically has a really challenging start, they would have suffered significant trauma, most of them will have had various placement moves so they might have changed foster carers, had to start new schools and leave schools. So you can imagine with that amount of complexity, the thread of education and making sure that they can still achieve is really challenging. So you need a specialist role to have oversight across all of those children wherever they’re placed because most looked after children aren’t placed in the bar, but they became looked after. So you could have children in the north of England, for example, so the virtual school will work with the school, they will make sure that the school is supposed to meet the educational needs of that child, but also making sure that we’re doing the right assessments for that child. So accessing things like speech and language, education psychology. The virtual school also work with the social worker for that child, as well, and what would the foster carer, so it’s quite an interesting role because you’re working with lots of different professionals, but in the virtual school your main thread is, is this child making academic progress? What are the barriers and how can we support the child? So that’s the critical point, really of a virtual school.

    Kathleen Cushnie 5:11
    It sounds… so in terms of, so you said that you may have children from the north of England and so on. So does every borough or every local authority have their own virtual school then?

    Laverne 5:24
    Yeah, it’s a statutory requirement. So every single local authority has a virtual head, and that person is named. The way that they support children might be different, but there is a virtual head. So that’s written down, it’s in blood, we will support every single looked after child.

    Kathleen Cushnie 5:45
    Okay, interesting because I don’t think many people know that. So there is actually someone (which is amazing.) Yeah. So, there is someone in every borough, looking after all responsible for all of the children within the schools in that borough, that are look after children?

    Laverne 6:03
    Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.

    Kathleen Cushnie 6:05
    Wow, that’s really, really interesting. Yeah. Okay. And so, alright so you’ve explained that very clearly to us.

    Laverne 6:14
    And I would add… sorry I was gonna jump in to add an extra bit… that every school should have a designated teacher for looked after children. Again that’s written in the statutory guidance as well.

    Kathleen Cushnie 6:27
    Yeah, yeah and that I know for sure that that’s definitely happening in schools, yeah. Okay, so we’ve clearly explained the virtual school so what’s the difference between virtual school and alternative provision?

    Laverne 6:40
    So my role in Alternative Provision, I kind of did a bit of alternative provision, then started doing the acting up as Virtual Head for looked after children, and then went back to Alternate Provision because I loved it so much. So, essentially, again, it’s a statutory requirement that any child that can’t access mainstream school has to be offered some form of alternative to a mainstream setting. So my role is to make sure that children that might have been excluded permanently. That might have medical needs. They might be new arrivals to the borough and haven’t got school place.

    My role is to make sure that they access some form of education. So, usually outside of a mainstream setting that could be a small group setting, run by an independent alternative provider. It could be that they access, a one to one tutor, or sometimes it might be online learning, so it really does depend on the needs of that individual child. So for example you could have a child that has just had an operation, and they can’t get back into school, because they were in recovery, but you don’t want them to miss out on the learning that their peers will be having. So our role is to make sure that with the health professionals, we assess what the child is able to do, and we bring the education to them so they don’t miss out. (Very crucial.) That’s alternative provision.

    Kathleen Cushnie 8:07
    And why would you say that your work is valuable Laverne?

    Laverne 8:10
    So for me, I can talk about the personal. For me the reason I’m so passionate about it, particularly for children with medical needs because when I was in school, I had an operation, and I missed out, and there wasn’t anyone going well, we need to make sure that she catches up, or, you know, we need to maybe bring a tutor to our home. So that’s a big chunk of education, thatt I missed out on, I can’t necessarily get that back. But what I can do is make sure that with that passion and with that insight, I can make sure that other children in that situation, have the right provision in place, and a seen in that way. I don’t know if that answers your actual question though.

    Kathleen Cushnie 8:52
    No, of course, it answers my question, why is your work valuable? So I know why it’s valuable to you, because you’ve experienced that so you know the importance of doing your role and why that service is needed in schools and education possible. Yeah, because it, to be honest, really, you having that experience makes means that really in your leadership, I’m sure you make sure things happen for the children. Is that something that you’re really passionate about as well?

    Laverne 9:19
    Yeah, I could, I could… and what’s brilliant about my area of work, is that everybody I come across. There’s such a deep level of passion. And there’s a perseverance, and there’s a creativity, because we really believe that every child should have the opportunity to make progress. And so I’ve got as much energy for this, you know, and that’s why when I did the Virtual Head role. I ended up deciding not to continue with that, but to focus on Alternative Provision because I could really see that I could have an impact in that area. So yeah, I think the whole sector. We’re just really passionate about what we do and we’re always trying to find solutions to problems, and I love working in that type of environment.

    Kathleen Cushnie 10:09
    And just saying, you know, just going to just hone in on the point that you made. So you worked as a Virtual Head, and then you realise that you know I’ve really got a passion for Alternative Provision and decided to give up that role and go back to Alternate Provision. And the reason that I’m pointing that out, is sometimes people are reluctant to give up a title or a status in order to follow their passions. So, you have done that so tell us the reasons why you decided to do it and what impact that you think that’s had on you?

    Laverne 10:41
    Yeah, I mean, this was like a big, it was a big issue for a lot of people, because your Virtual Head, you know, you can train…you can, I was acting up, so you know I was kind of learning, essentially. My background I don’t have a teacher qualification. My background is, youth and community work, and careers guidance, so you know I kind of…. there was elements of me that thought, well, I’m not a teacher. It was that imposter syndrome, to a degree, but I was doing really well at it, and I could have continued. Because you don’t have to be a teacher to do that role. But I realised when I was doing it, that there is so many people that you need to influence, to come up with a solution which is which is great. And I suppose that’s probably an area of strength for me, but to really make a big change on the scale that I want to do. In that role, I couldn’t do that. And also, I think, because I started off in Alternative Provision, and had quite a vision for what it could be. I felt I could really achieve that. So, I, it’s ironic actually because the person in the role now. I was her manager, and then she became my manager, and we laugh about that because it’s such a strange set of circumstances, but my focus was on the future, as opposed to the now, and I’m so glad. I’m so glad that I focused on the vision for Alternative Provision because I can now do that I can now actually make such a difference.

    Kathleen Cushnie 12:25
    Okay and we’re just gonna go back to that point that you made about you being a Virtual School Head, and then that you decided because you’ve had experience in Alternative Provision, and that you are passionate about is that you decided to go back. Now, the reason I’m picking that out is because it’s so important sometimes when people are in the role, they think, ‘Oh, I’ve got to stay in that role because of the status,‘ and that they may find that if they go sideways, or I don’t like to use the word backwards, but back to a role that they were passionate about was almost as if they do in some ‘career suicide’ or something like that. So can you speak to us a bit more about why, why you did that, and how you’re feeling about your decision now? Was it the right decision? I mean, what is the right decision. I mean there’s a lot to unpack there so tell us why you know why you did…

    Laverne 13:14
    Well I think for me, it was definitely the right decision because I am passionate about alternative provision, and that’s the area that I want to have an impact. So, I’m, you know as much as I enjoyed…I dunno can you enjoy being a Virtual Head I suppose you can enjoy elements of it. It’s a really tough role and Alternative Provision is really tough in a different way, but I think for me the ability, the ability to influence was very different, as a, as a Virtual Head. I think you’re. I suppose you’re, you’re making a difference to individual children’s lives and you’re planning across a huge cohort, a really large cohort in some local authorities.

    Alternative Provision, I think there’s so many areas that are being developed right now, that for me to be in the position that I’m in, I can help to shape that. So just as an example, there’s an all parliamentary group that’s looking at the quality of Alternative Provision at the moment, and I can be part of that, you know, supporting the consultations, looking at how we can measure the quality of Alternative Provision that’s all happening right now. There’s loads of stuff around Alternative Provision now when I go into Twitter we’ve got a hashtag #ThisisAP, so anyone interested, you know, use that you can have a look at what’s out there. And there’s so many providers and commissioners, like myself, that are writing about Alternative Provision and sharing all of the amazing work that happens in the sector.

    So I think for my role, you know, I get to work with alternative providers, head teachers that are delivering alternative provision. I get to be really creative because every single family is different. I get to work with parents and carers, so I’m still working with looked after children, there’s just so much to the role, so I think for me I focused on the passion, and I’ll always do that in my career. I’ve done so many upwards, downwards, sideways, that’s just kind of how things work, and actually I would mention, and I was always going to mention Krumboltz, but one of the things that I learned when I did my careers guidance qualification was around, actually just being curious and sometimes just taking, taking a risk, but really importantly, thinking about in your career, what would be fun to do next? There’s a question that he always asked: What would be fun to do next? And to enjoy your role is, is quite rare. So for me, I knew I enjoyed alternative provision, I knew I could have an impact. And so here I am, and I’m absolutely loving it!

    Kathleen Cushnie 15:57
    It’s great to hear that you’re loving your work. Again there was a few things, that you said that to love your role is quite rare, and I don’t know, I think that many people believe that when you’re working, to love your role is quite aware but I know that there were many people, many educators particularly, that go into work and and get a buzz of real passion out of knowing that they’re helping young people. So yeah, think about that statement, it could be debatable, but I just want to also pick up on you said that you’ve had a varied career working with young people. So, and you’re passionate. So in terms of your passion, you’ve worked with young people in various different aspects mainstream, that virtual school, like you saying, alternative provision. What has been the most fulfilling for you?

    Laverne 16:47
    Oh that’s a really good question. What’s been the most fulfilling? I think for me, the most fulfilling aspect of the roles I would say, is working with working directly with young people and their parents. Actually, you know, in my role as a manager, I don’t get the opportunity as much to work directly with the children. But when I do, I come alive, even more, because I’m actually getting to hear the direct voice of the young person. And I’m hearing the direct voice of the parent. So I would say that’s the element that I will, you know, Always really love.

    I do some voluntary work as well, supporting adults through Christians Against Poverty, it’s a job club, so actually getting the opportunity to work one to one with with people talking about their life experiences and trying to support them. I absolutely love that! And there’s other elements of my role that I really love, doing finance, you know, being creative with with solutions and looking at problems in different ways, and having to come up with solutions quite quickly. I love doing that.

    Kathleen Cushnie 17:57
    And well in terms of all of those different roles, then it seems like a lot of them you, you are a leader. So, what does leadership mean to you?

    Laverne 18:06
    I think for me, leadership is having a vision for maybe something that doesn’t exist yet, and bringing other people along with you on that vision, and helping them to see what you can see, but also doing that in a way that works for them as individuals, as well. We’ve all got different learning styles. We’ve all got different gifts that we bring to the table. So working with those individuals, and maybe developing, bringing out those gifts, so that they can help towards that vision, and maybe they might shape that vision as well. And you can say, ‘Brilliant! I haven’t seen that. Come on, let’s let’s work with that.’ So for me, leadership is about a vision and I think in my career, I started off doing the one to one, then I moved to more of a management team leader type role. And then I started to develop (and still developing,) much more about the vision for the future. The bit that people can’t see yet. So it’s a journey. It’s a journey.

    Kathleen Cushnie 19:09
    When you’re saying about you know the vision that you can’t see yet, I think when you’re thinking about growth and a journey. When you’re truly growing, it’s, it’s an extension of where you currently are. So in order to grow, you have to go somewhere where you’ve never been before. And like you were saying, trying to get others to see the journey is an important part of leadership. I think it’s one that I think a lot of people when they go into leadership are quite unsure about. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you’ve approached change and and leadership in terms of inspiring or influencing others on a journey along the way?

    Laverne 19:50
    I think for me, because I’ve got an information, advice and guidance, kind of background which sounds quite wordy, but it’s all about kind of those counselling skills and I’ve got a counselling qualification. So for me it’s always been about my own reflection, actually. And that reflective practice. So that’s, that’s, for me, reflective practice is everything. If you can’t look at things that you might have got wrong. If you can’t be open minded and be open with people when you’ve got it wrong, you know, I got it wrong. Then that Leadership isn’t necessarily going to come easily. So for me the critical thing is, has always been about being able to reflect and also being able to listen and hear what people are saying and take on board what they’re saying, with an open mind. Essential. You know there’s there’s different styles isn’t there.

    Kathleen Cushnie 21:04
    Well, yeah the listening…

    Laverne 21:07
    Yeah, and I’ve seen people in leadership roles where they view themselves as the leader as saying right, you’re going to do this you’re going to do that. You know, that does not work, necessarily, and they struggle to take on feedback, and use it. So, listening, reflecting using people’s skill set, developing people, motivating people. You know you can’t get to your vision, as a leader if people are not motivated, you’ve got to understand what motivates them. And work with that.

    Kathleen Cushnie 21:45
    Yeah you’re right! So tell me how do you motivate people?

    Laverne 21:52
    So I think my starting point is to listen and understand. I know I keep saying the same thing but a lot of things come down to that. Listen and understand what they see. So, if we’ve got, I don’t know a new project or a different kind of direction of travel. I’ll always ask my team what they think, because they’re going to have a different angle to this problem, very different angles. So, I think, what helps to motivate people, is actually being heard, and some of their ideas are amazing, I couldn’t even I couldn’t even imagine them myself. You know, you feel motivated when you are heard. And when someone says, ‘Great idea, let’s go with it.’ And the thing I always say with my team is, ‘It’s okay to make a mistake is absolutely fine, we’ll figure it out. But let’s be creative. Let’s try this.’ So, motivating people also is creating a climate where people feel safe, they feel safe to be creative. They feel safe to share their voice. And that I think is motivating. I know that’s not theory X and Y but that’s my version!

    Kathleen Cushnie 23:14
    It’s a great version Laverne, I mean, you say, you know, it’s not theory X and Y, but you know it’s real life, I agree completely with you creating a climate where people feel safe. When people feel safe, they’re able to feel that they can add, contribute and then grow. And I think again it’s going back to that point where, you know, if, if you can only grow if you try new things. You can only grow if you move from where you are. You are not going to grow, the situation that you’re in is not going to grow if you don’t take that step.

    And it is going to be uncomfortable, you know, so I think as a leader, what you’re saying, listening is crucial, allowing people to feel heard, is crucial, listening to their ideas, motivates them, then they’re going to be more likely actually then to contribute.

    Another thing that you said that I think’s really, really important is to the value in the skills that, and the different skills that different people within the team may bring to the table, because it’s true. We all see things through different lens. And, you know, you may have overlooked or just been blind…blindsided to something that you haven’t seen before because that’s not the way that you look at it, and again that this highlights the importance of different perspectives and that we are all valuable, all of the time. Yeah, I just like thanks for really highlighting that point I think it’s such such an important point to make, especially the point of the value of being heard. So talking about all of these various different things that you’ve experienced, what would you say is the toughest lesson that you’ve experienced that has enabled your personal growth?

    Laverne 24:54
    What’s been the toughest? I would say the toughest experience that supported my growth was when my job was cut. My original job that I had working as a Connexions Manager there was an old, a service called Connexions that supported young people and that’s kind of how I how I started off in working in Southwark and the funding was cut; it was a national thing. And my job was gone and I trained as a career advisor. So, you know, that was really difficult because I was really enjoying what I was doing, but I was faced with this option of Alternative Provision, or find something else and I had no clue what Alternative Provision was. I just had not a clue.

    And, you know, I spoke to people, I learned more about it, I got the role, and I was really fortunate enough to have an amazing leader. I would describe her as, who was so supportive of my journey, I could say to her, Liz. I don’t know what I’m doing, and she’d say so right come on, she took me into a meeting room, and she’d, allow me to just say, ‘I don’t know what I’m doing!’ And have that moment of panic, you know, because I was completely new I was a novice, and we learned together.

    So for me, that in between of job being cut and landing this role, that was frightening. That was probably my scariest moment because it was not safe. I didn’t know if I was going to be successful. I knew it was a really important role, and I knew I had to learn it pretty quickly. So, you know, I would say that was probably my, my scariest moment I could have left and found a job in as a careers advisor somewhere else but I decided to, as I always do, take a risk, and just do something completely random that I know nothing about, and figure it out and I was really fortunate to have somebody there that was able to go on this journey with me.

    Kathleen Cushnie 27:03
    Fantastic. I mean, again, it goes to show that having a supportive leader enables people to grow because you felt comfortable, you had that safe space. And that enabled you to grow and, you know, become the person that you are, successful and move on to all these different things. And what’s really crucial there is that that was your first role in Alternative Provision, look at your passion now. I mean how crucial was that. So I mean, you know, these little, little steps that we’ve taken along the journey we never know how, how they’re gonna end up, and what they may blossom into so I mean, again it just highlights how supporting each other…the impact that that can have on somebody’s career or impact on that person, it’s not all about the career really is it? We are the people and we are in careers but we are the people that are leading others. It’s all about people and connections, really. So what advice would you give an educator wanting to pursue a pathway, not say similar to yours but I would say, pursuing a pathway in Alternative Provision, let’s say, what advice would you give to an educator?

    Laverne 28:13
    So I suppose my advice would be, to go out and actually talk to alternative providers. If you can, you know, I would really, really, really encourage, in general, teachers working in a mainstream setting to go out to the pupil referral unit, to learn the environment and the specialisms that are held within a pupil referral unit, or an alternative provision. You know, I think, going out and actually seeing it is, is critical. The other thing I would say is, is that alternative provision, the idea of it is, it’s specialist. It’s bespoke it’s about the individual child it’s about their needs. So really having a passion for the individual needs of the child, wanting to understand them, and plan around that child is really important. So, you know, just just learning, learning about what can impact a child and how those different things can disrupt their education really trying to understand what some of those things are. So things like for example, you know, being involved in negative peer groups, It could be, like I mentioned earlier, having a hospital admission. It could be family breakdown, it could be a mental health need really trying to understand what are the barriers to education. And I think that applies to whether you’re working in an AP or in a mainstream school, I’d really encourage mainstream schools to really understand that arena, because I think it’s about working together, you know, APs, schools, you might flow into AP and flow back into mainstream school at different times, we really need to be working together.

    Kathleen Cushnie 30:02
    You’ve really made me think about the point that you’re making about working together because I think sometimes we work in our own little boxes. So Alternative Provision is over there, you know, Social Services are over there, Educational Psychologists over there, and we’re in school, and we kind of work in our own separate boxes. And you know like children, you know, okay I’m gonna refer this child, that child gets passed back there’s a lot more. And I think the joined up thinking really does need to happen. Yes it does…apparently happen on paper, but I think we really do need that joined up thinking and like you’re saying, you know, working on alternative provision or working in mainstream, if we all had experiences or insights even (because you know maybe it might be difficult to move into different roles). If we had insights into the different provisions that are available in order to support our young people so the same young people. And I think that may change the way that we deal with certain situations. There’s a really, really important point that you’ve made their Laverne. Thank you!

    All right, so we’re going to come into the end now. So you’ve mentioned Krumboltz. You love him a lot. So can you tell us, you may mention him, you may not. But what’s the best resource that has helped you along your journey? What’s the best resource what’s the, what’s the thing, the one thing that you always refer back to that you listen to maybe a book or maybe a podcast may be, you know, a certain person that you may watch on YouTube? What’s the…who inspires you and what’s the best resource that you’ve helped you along your journey?

    Laverne 31:39
    I’m gonna have to say Krumboltz! And I have to say it because I just think that, whatever journey you all in your career, there are certain things, skills, attributes that you that you should just keep open to. So Krumholtz talks about curiosity. He talks about persistence. He talks about flexibility, optimism, and risk taking. They’re the key things he talks about and I think every stage in my career, I’ve always come back to those points. Being curious essential, as a leader, essential as you progress your career. And also, you know that that thing about being persistent. If you’re moving into a new area, or you’re moving into middle leadership, or senior management. You’re basically the person in the room that doesn’t know as much as everyone else that’s pretty scary, but you have to persevere with that and just keep an open mind really listen and learn to what’s around you to help build yourself up.

    So I would say that Krumboltz, he’s got a book called, ‘Luck No Accident’ where he talks about developing these skills. And you know when an opportunity comes your way, you’ve developed those skills and you can then take that opportunity. The other thing that he talks about is failing fast and failing often, you know, it’s okay to get it wrong. And actually he encourages you to try things, get it wrong, and learn from it. That’s been the most influential person, I would say.

    Kathleen Cushnie 33:26
    Fantastic, thank you for sharing those with us. And so as we come to the end, I’m going to ask you, three deep dive statements, and I’m going to throw in a random question there for you. So all you’ve got to do is finish the statement, okay. You don’t really need to think about what comes to your head is the most important thing. So, being successful means…

    Laverne 33:33
    …working hard and keeping your integrity.

    Kathleen Cushnie 33:54
    Keeping your integrity Laverne. Oh my God! Keeping your integrity. Let’s just pause for a moment because that is so important. I think we’ve given it enough respect. Right, my voice is important because…

    Laverne 34:11
    …I have valuable things to share.

    Kathleen Cushnie 34:15
    Yeah, and full stop. That’s it!

    Kathleen Cushnie 34:20
    The education system needs….

    Laverne 34:24
    …Oh, joined up working, and child first thinking.

    Kathleen Cushnie 34:30
    Oh my god I love it! Child FIRST thinking. Again….Let’s give it a moment. Child FIRST thinking. Do you know what actually isn’t that not why, you know, everybody that works with children and young people go into whatever role they’re in? Whether it’s in school, whether it’s a social worker, you know, educational psychologists, surely the child first thinking must be at the core of every decision that you make sure, surely!? So, yes, I want to clap that. Yep. Fantastic! Education needs that. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!

    Right, last one random question. An abundant amount of confidence and support has been delivered to your door Laverne. You only have the rights to distribute one, which one do you choose?

    Laverne 35:26
    Confidence!

    Kathleen Cushnie 35:28
    Because?

    Laverne 35:29
    Oh, because!? Because…I think that’s how you help to influence other people.

    Kathleen Cushnie 35:40
    Wow, I can’t, I can’t let you say that and just leave it there in this interview. Right confidence because? Go on, please elaborate on that, this needs elaboration.

    Laverne 35:52
    Because I think when you’re thinking about your vision. Usually, you’ve ruminated on this vision in your own head for some time, and it takes that confidence to describe something that other people can’t see. To describe that, and to bring people on that journey with you.

    Kathleen Cushnie 36:14
    You’re right! You’re right. I’m just thinking about sometimes you’re so passionate about something, and you really want to get it all out, but if you don’t have the confidence it may not translate as well as it could. And that can be detrimental in terms of your idea or whatever it is being taken forward or the vision or whatever it is. That is such a good thing to think about. Thank you so much. So Laverne. You have been wonderful. Thank you for joining us. And, I mean there’s so much there to take. I think this is one of those episodes where you may need to listen to it twice because there are little things in there that you may come back to and think, and just reflect on. So thank you very much. You’ve been a fantastic guest, and thank you for joining us on Voicing Education.

    Laverne 37:04
    Thank you for inviting me.

    Kathleen Cushnie 37:07
    Thank you so much for listening. I hope you were inspired and gained some insight, which can help you as you progress on your journey. Do share your key takeaways on social media, and let people know what resonated with you. Remember to tag me, I’d love to see your thoughts, and subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already. Thank you for being here. Until our next episode. Be safe, be well, but most importantly, keep growing. Remember, there is power in your voice, and it all starts with a conversation.

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai