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NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Kathleen Cushnie  0:26  

What’s life like being a young head teacher? In this conversation, I’m speaking with Laura, the headteacher where I currently work. Since 2016, Laura has been the head teacher in our current school in a highly diverse area in London. Originally an infant and junior school, the two schools were merged to form a large five form entry primary, making it one of the largest in the country with more than 10 years of education experience.

Laura has also worked in the role of an Executive  Headteacher leading the school alongside a new one form entry primary in its initial stages of becoming a school. She has also provided training within the Enfield Learning Trust to other leaders, as well as on behalf of the Enfield local authority, specifically focusing on leading wellbeing. 

Hi, Laura.  I’m so pleased that you’ve taken some time out of the busy day for us to have a conversation. So as I’ve said before, Laura is my head teacher. So we work together on a headship team. And basically, we’re just going to have a discussion about her journey into headship, and what it’s been like for her, and she’ll just be listening to two leaders having a good old chat at the end of a school day. So Laura, can you start off by telling us just a brief description of who you are as a leader?

 

Laura Pearce  2:22  

So I’m quite a young head. So I think I would be described as so my journey into leadership was quite rapid. And I became a head teacher at the age of 28. So yeah, so I was quite young at the time, very enthusiastic, very passionate about the job, all great qualities, but had no idea quite the hill that I was climbing at the time, in hindsight, you know, fantastic experience. But yeah, so that’s kind of how I landed here, really, I started my career in my 20s. And as I said, then went through at about 28 and got to headship was an AHT and a deputy, but quite rapidly got to that point, really. I believe I was the youngest headteacher in the country at the time. I’m a little bit older now; I’m not too much older, but a little bit older. So I was the youngest at the time, I think. But I didn’t mind that to be honest.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  3:21  

No, I don’t think it should make a difference. So speaking of being the youngest head teacher, how has that would you say impacted your leadership style?

 

Laura Pearce  3:33  

I think it’s probably made me very open minded about what leaders should be really. So in terms of what everybody can bring to leadership. So I know, historically, in a school setting, perhaps it was always presumed that you should do your years before you got to be a leader. And that, you know, you required a certain amount of time before you got to be in a position. And I think, I definitely don’t believe that I think everybody possesses different qualities naturally, and that they are able to be a leader at whatever point. And I certainly think experience is very valuable. And you get that along the way. But then as I said, when I initially became a headteacher, I think the kind of youth drive that you have the time and probably the energy is also you know, really fantastic to have in the role. So it made me really value everybody, I think.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  4:31  

Yeah, that’s…that’s real – a strong point, actually. Because obviously, I was there with you along your journey. And I would say the sheer drive that you had, and energy, with the passion was, I think, an added bonus as to being a young head teacher because it was, you know, I’m going to use the word it was gruelling, it was it was tough. There was a lot of work to do, a lot of things to overcome and in terms of talking about the obstacles, I think as a young head teacher, can you just explain some of the obstacles that you’ve had to overcome?

 

Laura Pearce  5:08  

Yes, so the school where I became the head teacher, which is where I, you know, remain, it was difficult, it was in a difficult place, it was actually two schools at the time, an infant and a junior school , it’s obviously, you know, we’ve merged it to become a primary now. But it was in a very difficult place, it was very divided, it was, it didn’t really have one vision. And that had its benefits for me, because I was able to change a lot of things, create a new vision, created a fantastic team that had the drive and vision that, you know, I wanted, and that we could all kind of carry forward.

But, you know, it meant that I had to make some really difficult and unpopular decisions at the time, which, you know, was difficult as, as being so young, perhaps your skin isn’t quite as thick at the time. And, you know, it was difficult, and I had to make those decisions, knowing that the end goal was for the children really, and that be really confident in how I could provide the very best education for them. And I was, I was really confident that that’s what I wanted to achieve. And it was about making those decisions and bringing everybody on board with me. And it was also, with that, it was trying to gain everybody’s respect along the way. So you know, for a lot of people, I was young, I was new, I wanted to make changes. And really, I had to kind of have that thick skin and roll with it before kind of you could see the blossoming if those changes if you’d like, and the minute that that started to happen, and the minute that people began to feel valued, and felt that they kind of fed into that vision was actually when it all started changing.

And, you know, I kind of felt that people were sort of like, oh, okay, yeah, all right, she’s done that, okay, like tick. All right, we’ll go on to the next thing. And then slowly and gradually, people responded really positively and wanted to be here and I would hope liked the leadership that I’d created, you know, both obviously, my own leadership, but also the team around me and what we were trying to do, really.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  7:26  

That’s a good point that you made, actually just breaking it down into steps. So once you got to one stage, and then they saw (in terms of the staff) that that was successful, then you could build on that. So going back to what you said, in terms of the challenge, would you say…what was it that got you through those challenging days?

 

Laura Pearce  7:47  

I think, really my love for teaching, and my kind of passion for wanting the school to be the very best for the children. And I always felt that it had such potential. And I felt that there were people here with great potential. And it, and it really was a bit of a blank canvas, actually, and I think sometimes head teachers can be a bit nervous about stepping into that role, you know, everybody looks for a good or outstanding school. And I’m not sure that if I’d have stepped into a good or outstanding school initially, that I would necessarily be where I am.

Now, in terms of my own leadership, I certainly wouldn’t have had the experiences that I have, have had. So for me, I found that that was the best place to start, I really formed kind of what my vision was, and was able just to carry it through, I didn’t have obstacles in terms of the community in that sense, because the school was a bit directionless at the time, so I was able to go in the direction I wanted. I think that, that other people would face that barrier, I think somewhere else, particularly if you were going to an outstanding school, for example. So I didn’t really face that barrier. I guess in terms of externally, I did face the barrier with my age in terms of being accepted. You know, it was a bit weird at the time when I became a head, it’s a very different picture now.

But when I became a head, you know, only a short time ago, I really was the youngest by a mile. And I find that quite daunting. I’m sure they… I’m sure they were all very accepting. But for me, perhaps from my personal point of view, I did find that quite daunting. But I think just confidence kind of shone through and I’m really understanding that you can’t change everything overnight. So that really picking priorities. And I can’t stress enough about creating the right leadership team because it’s not a one man job.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  9:44  

Yeah. Now that’s I think we have to kind of unpick, it’s not a man, one job, one man job, I should say. It takes a team in order to lead. So can you talk about how you built your team because I think it’s really important that we kind of dissect that, because it’s not an easy thing to do. Yeah. So how did you go about that? 

 

Laura Pearce  10:07  

I mean, I think I’ve got a great team. And I’m not just saying that because I’m talking to you Kathleen. I think, I think being kind of a head teacher is not about doing it all. It’s very much about finding the right people with the right skills. And knowing that at times, they will be better at doing it than you will. But it’s very much about putting the right people in the right place. And so you might have that I keep talking about this vision. And I think that’s really important, you might know where you want the school to be and what you want to achieve. But that doesn’t necessarily mean say, you can do it all alone. So you have to find the right people and nurture the right people in order to create that really effective team. And so for me, I totally restructured everything from top to bottom, really, so my senior leadership team, the middle leaders, and really thought about what was going to be the most effective. And I obviously, you know, I work in a big school with you, Kathleen. And it, I had to think very carefully about the structure because of that. So the communication of all the leaders, how was that going to feed back to me without it being solely reliant on me. So I wanted a team that was very united, that I could really, they, they had passion, and I could feed off them as much as they could feed off me. And I think that’s what we did create actually remained as that.

And we often refer to ourselves, so there’s myself and three deputies. And we often refer to ourselves as kind of a corner each of a square, because we all feed something different into our leadership. And together, it really works. And I think that’s when you know, you’ve got something great, really.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  11:58  

Brilliant! And as a part of that square, I would totally agree with you, I think, for us, or from my perspective, I would say it’s the passion, and being kind of, able to talk through the ideas and everything that we have. And you know, because you, you listen, you listen to us talk through our ideas and everything. And we all know where we want to go. And it’s just it just works; it definitely works.

 

Laura Pearce  12:27  

And I think sometimes as well, when you’re in a good place in a school, you know, when we all started, we all had our passions and our agendas, but we couldn’t necessarily put those into action initially, because they weren’t the priority for the school. But now, I think it is about sometimes letting go a little bit. I think over time, I have let go. And that comes with trusting your leaders as well. But I think it’s important that you do let go and you kind of listen to those ideas. And oh, yeah, okay, let’s yeah, let’s go off on that tangent and do that you’re really passionate about that, you know, I’m going to trust that actually, you can do that really well. Like, that’s something that’s great, that would be great for the school. It might not necessarily have been in my vision initially. But yeah, you have to be a bit flexible with that, and really get the best out of everybody.

And I think as well know each other. I mean, we laugh often, you know, we know each other’s personalities now, and there’ll be times where, you know, you might come to me and say, I think we should do this. And I think, you know, why would we do that? But actually and you know, after a conversation very often it will be okay, then yeah, you know, that sounds great actually, I’m not always fixed. I don’t think you might feel differently. But I don’t think I’m always necessarily really fixed, you know, to not to not make that those kinds of decisions.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  13:55  

No, I’d agree with you. And I think that’s the benefit of being open and approachable. Because having those conversations you may get, like, for example, if I had an idea, I may go in with one idea, and it comes out slightly different or the idea’s grown. And I think that’s really important about having those conversations and feeling that you can contribute to ideas and the vision. So, in terms of today, where you are in your leadership, how would you say the experiences that you’ve encountered have impacted you as a leader?

 

Laura Pearce  14:31  

So I think that I’ve obviously become more confident as a leader in the decisions that I’ve made. You know, initially when you’re making the decisions with all the will in the world, there is still a slight element of I really hope this works. But I think I’ve become more confident with you know, that experience and I’ve had the benefit of experiencing a lot now because of the size of the school and where we were. I think I’ve had a lot of experience to inform the decisions that I make. I’ve never, I’ve not always made the right decision, either. So they’ve been, you know, some decisions that I’ve made that, you know, I wouldn’t again, or we, you know, we perhaps, would do things a little bit differently, or the priorities would be different. But I think that’s all useful learning as well, I don’t think you should ever come into leadership and think I’m gonna get this right all the time, because you won’t, primarily because leadership is really reliant upon personal communication, and, and people.

So you have to adapt yourself. And that includes when, you know, you’re not having a very good day, or you’ve had limited sleep, you know, you still have to kind of communicate and do that, and, and, you know, sometimes be a bit superhuman. So some days, you’re better at it than others. And so I think I’ve kind of learned that as well. And to give myself a bit of a break as well, that you can’t do everything overnight, like I said, and you know, and actually, you should walk away and give yourself a pat on the back at times. Because if things are going well, then that is great really.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  16:09  

Yeah. Brilliant. So basically your own cheerleader, would you say?

 

Laura Pearce  16:12  

I think so. And also, you know, I like to cheer on the team as well, we were very, you know, we were very positive. We’re a positive senior leadership team. And, you know, I like it when we, when we all do things well, like, it’s never, you know, particularly when we had our Ofsted and, and it went really well. I genuinely, genuinely felt that it was a whole school achievement. It was not my achievement, I would not have been anywhere without the hard work of the entire school, really. And it was just that very hard work. So I think that’s really important. You know, you might be the leader that you know, but you’re leading people, so they have their part to play as well. So yeah.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  17:00  

Yeah, absolutely. So being the youngest head teacher at the time, how did that happen? Like for… so people gonna say, yeah, she was young; she was 28. But how did that happen? 28 is pretty young Laura.

 

Laura Pearce  17:15  

I think no one else wanted the job. I think, um, I did fall into it, it wasn’t really my plan at the time. I would have eventually made it there, I think because I had such drive to get there. But it certainly wasn’t my plan at the time. And I think it was about being in the right place. So we’ll call it the right place. Now, in the right place at the right time, it was a school that was just prime for somebody that didn’t require a lot of sleep to come in. And, you know, really be so super enthusiastic about what to do. And I had supportive people around, you know, I had a mentor.

And, you know, I had freedom as well, actually, I had freedom financially, we, you know, the school was in a good place. So we had, we have freedom for that. And I was able to make a lot of really great decisions because of that. So it happened, you know, I made my way from a teacher, I worked in the Midlands, I came down to London, and it was in London that I rapidly progressed. And I think as I started this in saying, I think those opportunities might predominantly be in schools where they’re not good or outstanding, where, you know, you can make an impact. And I would really encourage people to do that. Why wouldn’t you want to go somewhere where you can fully take ownership of that leadership? I think, you know, that, for me, was fantastic.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  18:44  

Yeah, definitely. There’s…there was so much to do, and the excitement of what we could create from where we were really…

 

Laura Pearce  18:53  

…definitely, I think, even when we were at the point when we very first started, and the four of us kind of sat down when we’d kind of made our team. And we sat down and we were still in requires improvement at the time. You know, and things weren’t great. You know, there was a lot to be done. But we sat there and the vision was outstanding. It’s never been to get to good. It’s always been to get to the very, very best, which is outstanding. And I think that’s really important.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  19:22  

Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. So on that journey, then Laura, what was the toughest lesson that you’ve experienced that has enabled personal growth?

 

Laura Pearce  19:31  

I think probably that not everybody likes you.  I think that you’re going to make unpopular decisions. And that’s just going to be how it is. Not everybody can like you, not everybody is going to agree with you and not everybody’s going to be happy about the decisions that you make. But if you understand that it’s your role, and that you’re doing it with the best intention, knowing what you want the outcome to be and you do it in the right way. So you know that you are listening to people, you are informed about what decisions you’re going to make. And then you can accept that, I think, but it is a hard lesson. It is definitely a hard lesson. 

 

Kathleen Cushnie  20:12  

Yeah, it’s definitely, especially if, for example, you are a people pleaser, or you just like to feel good all the time. Because, yeah, there’s some tough decisions that were made. But you know, it’s all for the children. So what advice then thinking about the tough decisions that you’ve made, knowing what you’ve had to go through? If you were to go back to someone, someone young, for example, that was about to take on new leadership? What advice would you give them?

 

Laura Pearce  20:39  

I think you should listen to those around you. I think you need to hear what people have to say when you’re making decisions. But I think ultimately, you need to be really aware about what the goal is that you want, and confidence in your own ability. I think that if you have that, and you will then kind of get respect for the decisions that you make. Albeit, they might not be the most popular but I think for even now, when I’m making decisions that, you know, sometimes people won’t like, I think they’re accepted. Because, you know, there are other decisions that people do like, or they think, Okay, well, I can see why I might not like it, but I can see why. So I think I would just say about having confidence, really, and really honing that drive and passion into something great. Because I think that’s what we did. And I genuinely feel so privileged to be in the position that I’m in. And I think we’re making such a difference to children’s lives. And I feel, you know, that that is fantastic. I’m really, really proud to be the leader that I am. And I really wouldn’t want to do any other job.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  21:50  

Yeah. Now, I agree. I think you’re a great leader, Laura. And I have watched the change in your leadership. And it’s been nice to see – to unfold. 

 

Laura Pearce  22:01  

Yeah, I definitely think I have changed. I think I probably appeared like I knew it all. Or, you know, I thought I knew it all at the beginning. And I think I’ve probably softened a little bit. But ironically, probably I’m more confident in knowing what I know now than I was then. Yeah, I definitely think I have evolved. And I think you should evolve as a leader, I think you should ever stay the same. And I think who you’re working with makes you evolve and be a different leader as well. You know, some people need more direction, some people need that kind of chatting through the decisions, you know, you have to be a different leader to different people.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  22:43  

I like that that’s abs…Do you know that I think that’s one of the best takeaways, you have to be a different leader for different people. So being able to adapt to the situations around. (Definitely!) Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant. And so thinking about you then and as a person. So you’ve recently just come back from maternity leave, would you say like, you know, having a baby now has changed your approach to leadership at all or…?

 

Laura Pearce  23:10  

I don’t think so. I mean, other than I’m probably a little bit more tired. I think I still have that drive and passion, I really missed it when I was on maternity leave. I mean, I love my baby, but I really did miss it. I get something from doing this job and being a leader, but I just think it’s just so precious. And I, I feel like the role is something that I’ve really aspired to do. And and I you know, I like to think that I’m good at it. And I think it makes a difference. And and I think being, you know, being a parent, perhaps makes you if anything, value your role more if you’re working with children, because I think you really see, you know, how you can have a direct impact on that. I always felt we were anyway. But I think when you have a child, maybe you do sense that a little bit more.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  24:07  

Okay, brilliant, great answer. So as a mum and a head teacher two very intense roles, how do you maintain you?

 

Laura Pearce  24:17  

So as we know, Kathleen, I’m very big on well being. And I really, really promote this within the school and have done for a fair few years. I think it’s really vital that people look after themselves that you know, you know, that you’re you know your worth and that you really value yourself. You can’t do your job well, unless you are well. So, for me, I guess it’s having that work life balance. It’s keeping on top of things, it’s prioritising. It’s knowing that I probably will never get to the bottom of my to do list, but that things keep changing to be on the top of it and that is fine. And I think the acceptance, and this is kind of my mantra: is the acceptance that it will get done, things just do happen. And that, you know, you don’t have to spend the time and energy worrying, because that’s actually just taking you away from doing it. So it’s better to kind of get those things done. And it will you will achieve really.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  25:22  

High five to that! It’s definitely the acceptance of knowing that you’re never going to get everything done. And it’s okay, I think we’ll get there. 

 

Laura Pearce  25:29  

I think that’s teaching in general, I don’t think so, since I’ve started I’ve ever got to the bottom of a to-do-list. Because if you’re, if you’re a perfectionist, and you’re striving for, you know, kind of the best, then the job is endless. So…

 

Kathleen Cushnie  25:43  

…and what is the best? It’s changing every day! Absolutely, depending on who’s looking and through what lens? So, now let’s thinking about the next stage, then, over the years, what resources or support have you drawn on to help you?

 

Laura Pearce  26:01  

So I think, you know, the kind of wider community in terms of we work within a trust, and I’ve got, you know, friends who are head teachers within that trust, and I think sometimes you can lean on those people, if they’re going through the same experiences. And sometimes you just want somebody to say, Oh, yeah, that happened to me. And I dealt with it like this, you know, and often, it’s not necessarily the procedures that you don’t know, but it’s the whole feelings around situations and kind of managing that. So I’ve drawn very much on that. And as I said, When I started, I had a mentor, who now kind of, you know, heads up the trust, and the benefit of their experience and knowledge really impacted me. And that was fantastic. So she, you know, she was a fantastic leader, and that really benefited me. And so I think as well, just having everybody around you creating your team around you that you can really rely on and trust are so important. You know, if you’re having an off day, you need to be able to say to somebody, I have an off day today, you know, I’m tired. Right? But and that’s fine. Like and you know, you kind of support each other really.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  27:23  

Because leaders are human right? I don’t know why we think that, you know…

 

Laura Pearce  27:29  

…definitely. And I think there is a fine line between professionalism. And oversharing, I was very much on the… when I started the super professional, I didn’t share anything with anybody. As time has gone on, certainly the senior leadership team, you know, you, you do share more. And on a wider scale of things, you know, you share a little bit more in terms of your family background, for example. You don’t need to, it’s entirely up to you. But I think I’ve softened probably over the years. I found that difficult. I didn’t want to do that because I didn’t want to muddy the waters when I was making difficult decisions. And I didn’t want people to necessarily think I was their friend, and then would make a decision they didn’t like so I found it better to have half that distance and step back a bit. But I’m happy now with the balance that I have, I think.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  28:29  

Brilliant. Yeah, just making sure that there’s no blurred lines. Yeah, definitely. So you’ve got to keep the professional line there. Okay, so we’ve come to the end. So I’m going to ask you three deep dive statements and a random question. So you just answer as honestly as you can, but quick. So what I love about my role is…

 

Laura Pearce  28:49  

What I love about my role is that I get to come every day to something that I passionately love. And it is different every single day.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  29:00  

If I could change one thing in education, it would be…. 

 

Laura Pearce  29:03  

…that everything keeps changing. 

 

Kathleen Cushnie  29:05  

Whoo, I like that. If I could change one thing in education, it would be that everything keeps changing. Interesting! What do you mean by that? I have to ask.

 

Laura Pearce  29:17  

I just feel that sometimes you’re just paddling to catch up, particularly in the latter years, you know, new curriculum changes, new standards and testing and, you know, just new Ofsted framework every year. There’s something new to wrap your head around, and it’s very difficult to embed when the goalposts keep changing. Yeah, I agree. I’m not saying these changes aren’t for the better, but they are changes nonetheless. 

 

Kathleen Cushnie  29:45  

So yeah, yeah. And last one then leadership is…

 

Laura Pearce  29:51  

…having a vision and being able to inspire people to create that vision. Bringing them along with you.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  30:01  

Brilliant: journey. Everyone’s on the bus. And the question…So this is a random question. You have woken up late and can only dress yourself with three words. Which ones do you grab for a successful day? 

 

Laura Pearce  30:15  

Positivity, passion, and humour. 

 

Kathleen Cushnie  30:22  

Brilliant definitely agree with the humour. All of them actually. But you know we both like to have a laugh. Yeah, not on school time…because it’s not quite professional. Brilliant Laura. Thanks for coming on. It’s been great talking to you.

 

Laura Pearce  30:44  

Thank you so much for having me. I’ve loved it.

 

Kathleen Cushnie  30:47  

Thanks. Take care. Bye. 

 

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you were inspired and gained some insights, which can help you as you progress on your journey. 

 

Do share your key takeaways on social media and let people know what resonated with you. Remember to tag me, I’d love to see your thoughts and subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already. Thank you for being here. Until our next episode, be safe, be well, but most importantly, keep growing. Remember, there is power in your voice and it all starts with a conversation.

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Christalla  Jamil 0:00  

#WomenEd it is a global grassroots movement that connects aspiring existing women leaders in education. It’s for women: run by women. And though we have he for shes men, of course support us and our co feminist. It’s just for women. It’s for black women. It’s not for black men. It’s for for example, you know, Muslim women, not Muslim men. I can go on and on and on with a comparative, but my message is #WomenEd it is for women to support, to grow and empower women.

Kathleen Cushnie 0:45  

Welcome to Voicing Education – The Podcast. I’m Kathleen Cushnie, founder of Voicing Education, a Senior Leading Education, Trainer and Coach. My mission is to help new leaders and teachers aspiring to leadership become confident in their ability to lead others successfully. Whether you’re a new or aspiring leader, this podcast will help you to become confident in your ability to lead others successfully. We discussed key themes in education and personal development, and how this can impact education and leadership. Let’s move that needle from confusion and overwhelm to clarity and inspiration. I’m so excited to share my first episode of view, please subscribe and renew as it would mean so much to me. I’m starting with a conversation with an empowering leader, who’s also a dear friend. I’m very supportive. This is the first in a series of women leaders. Each conversation gives you a different perspective of leadership from a woman’s point of view, confirming that there are many journeys to leadership. No two journeys are the same. Christalla Jamil is an experienced executive head teacher with a demonstrated history of working in the education management industry. She is skilled in inspections coaching crime, education, early childhood education, educational consulting, leadership and school improvement. In her spare time, Christina is a national leader for #WomenEd England, and lives by the motto. “Be fearless in the pursuit of what sets your soul on fire.” Christalla holds the torch and leads the way for others, encouraging them to be #10% braver, I know this as I speak from experience. Hello Christalla and welcome to the very first episode of Voicing Education. And obviously you had to be my first interviewee, because you were there at the beginning of my journey, and I thought it was so important that you were here at the next stage of my journey. So welcome. And I’m so excited to kind of talk to you and unpick your leadership style. And just so other people can see how great you are. So the first question is, tell us why are you so fabulous and so great at what you do? And I’m not saying that lightly. Christalla works hard, professionally, but also her professional life seems to seep into her personal life because she is just passionate about what she does. So tell us.

Christalla  Jamil 3:04  

First of all, I want to say I’m delighted to be invited, let alone be your first guest. So thank you for this opportunity. Well, as you know, I’ve been in education for almost 18 years now, I commence quite late in life. So I joined teaching at 36. And I’m currently the Executive Head or in Tottenham. And I commence this role in April 2020. Just as we all faced our first experience of lockdown. That’s kind of who I am and where I’ve come from.

Kathleen Cushnie 3:39  

Fantastic! And what you’ve missed out as a big part of what you do is that I know that you have a big role or your national leader for #WomenEd England. Can you tell us how being involved in #WomenEd England has impacted you as a person?

Christalla  Jamil 3:55  

Oh, gosh, yes. So I joined #WomenEd in 2016. So I went to one of the I think it was their second unconference. I’d been existing for about a year then. And I was just drawn to the power of community camaraderie support for women at the time, I’ve managed to take my own school out of some challenging measures. And we’ve got to good and beyond. And I think joining women at that time was perfect for me because that’s when I started to define my style of leadership. And what attracted me to #WomenEd, is the fact that we join that it’s a non judgmental group of women, but genuinely there to support each other so that so that we grow there, there are four main campaign so they have we’ve added to them over the years that the main one in the beginning was reducing the gender pay gap. And that’s something I’m extremely passionate about. More recently, we’ve become advocates for flexible working practices, we’ve always spoken and supported and want our voices heard impact on change with regards to representation of women in leadership roles. And that includes the increased diversity of women in leadership roles. So it’s just, it’s a role that it’s a community of women, that drew me because of their impact not only on myself, but on others. And since joining back in 2015, within my first year, I was invited to become a regional leader for London. So that meant, you know, holding my first event at my school, I believe it was the first event for North London, I know you attended, you know, lots and lots has happened since then. And #WomenEd has just grown significantly, both nationwide and across the globe. So we are now I believe, now, this might not be completely accurate, because our data changes on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. But I believe we’re in approximately 19 countries now there are 34 networks globally. And hence, due to our growth, the strategic group have now formed WomenEd England, which gives me a role where I’m accountable to support three regions. So it’s women at London, east and southeast and, and I do that with a group of other women in #WomenEd England. And so that’s, that’s kind of what drew me to start the work there.

Kathleen  Cushnie 6:49  

And how has so you do a lot in terms of supporting other women and I know you do a lot of coaching, as well as part of your role. How would you say that it’s impacted you as a leader?

Christalla  Jamil 7:02  

Or, you know, back from when you you trained in my class, goodness me, I forget the year you trained, but it, it feels like yesterday, often, and I’ve still got lots of memorabilia to remember 2006 Actually, I didn’t actually look upon you as a trainee, because I did so much amazing learning by having you as a co partner in my class. And I believe coaching is that same model. So regardless of rank, role, where you stand, whether you’re a teacher, a leader, a business manager, ahead, I feel we grow from each other. But where I’ve shifted my skills is really understanding the difference between mentoring and coaching. And not that coaching isn’t relationship focus, but I feel that challenge strategy, and really defining a purpose so that you embrace your successes, your accomplishments, but you’re also unafraid to face your challenges. And though they don’t always turn out the way you’d like them to having strategy helps you develop that having strategy helps you grow in confidence, and when through questioning the challenges that I pose on others that that have been posed on me throughout my career, I believe to strengthens the the ability for women, to lead in an authentic way not to be afraid to be kind to be authentic, to have feelings to be sensitive, and yet had simultaneously have the ability to hold people to up to account to be courageous to be determined to have faith in in their decisions in the processes and procedures that they deploy. Because people I deal with tend to be of the similar vision to myself. So you know, their values lead leaders, that ethical, you know, they have integrity, which allows them to choose courage. So I’m always the optimist. And I think that reaching out to others pays back tenfold. And it always comes back. Kathleen always comes back.

Kathleen Cushnie 9:21  

Yeah, I would say that I’ve noticed that it does. It always comes back. I mean, that’s how you know the universe works really, you know, you give and you receive and it always comes back to you. When you were talking about the challenges that you’ve faced. I was just interested in knowing really what is the toughest challenge that you’ve experienced that has enabled personal growth for you Christalla.

Christalla  Jamil 9:44  

I think sometimes going through challenges you don’t, you’re not always aware. And there are there are two ways out of it. Either. You keep your head down and you get on with things and and you endure and I suppose like Darwin, you know, you find a way to survive because sometimes it’s you know, survival of the fittest. through experience, I’ve learned that you have to also be very mindful of the impact that other people’s behaviours other people’s actions have on you. So, instead of being hurt and closing my door and doing my own thing, I think I’ve learned that you use every experience, literally as that as a learning experience. So you’re then in control to make choices. So if I look at main challenges, I think it was having a paid career so late in life, and one of the main challenges was having faith in myself and developing my own style of leadership. I think another challenge was being awarded quite a damaging judgement from Ofsted, in my third week of my first headship, meant that I took onboard other people’s ideas when I say other people, the people moderating us as a school. And I think when I look back and see how I grew, the real growth, and the real ability to face challenges when I it was when I became more courageous. So the biggest learning point for me is not to be afraid. It’s is to have, you know, your group of critical friends and an I seek personal challenge. I’m self aware, you know, I know what I’m good at. But I also know what I need to develop. You know, I’m not by far I’m not perfect. I don’t know everything. I have a skill, though. So I employ people that are things I don’t know, they know. And we complement each other well. And I think the other thing that has been pivotal to my to my personal growth, is understanding that, through errors through mistakes, we continue to grow. And I’ve learned not to repeat those. And I’ve learned to coach people to warn prewarn people through what has happened to me, perhaps, to avoid them, partly, but more so to strategise for them. So that if something did happen, you know, we’ve, we have our safety net, we’ve got our bulletproof vest, we’ve got a load of strategies that will help us climb out of that pit. So I think the challenges I faced, at the time may have been challenges, but I see now that they’ve been pivotal in my understanding of how errors or negative experiences can actually shape not only myself as a leader, but can shape the impact I have on others.

Kathleen  Cushnie 12:52  

Yeah, absolutely. It makes you stronger in history is like what you’re saying about having the strategies, there’s almost like that toolkit to armour up yourself, because the unknown is the place where you grow, right. So if as long as you have the strategies in order to be able to tackle any unknown obstacles or challenges that may come your way, I think, really, that’s where the truth growth happens. And to be, to be clear, quite frank, in order to grow, you have to face the challenges. And I think in terms of supporting one another, and like you said, giving and sharing the things that you’ve been through, it pulls everyone else up the ladder, really. And I think that that’s what you’re about. And that’s what WomenEd England is about what women ed is about. Totally. And I think really, as women, and particularly, we need to see more of that happening all of the time, there is no competition, we’re all on a journey. There’s no. And also, another thing that I think is quite clear. And I just want to highlight that there’s no finish line, there is no finish line. So we’re all just moving through.

Christalla  Jamil 13:55  

It’s something that when we formed women aired, I mean, it’s about a year ago, and then we had these, you know, huge ideas for the launch and then lockdown happen. So I mean, you have a part of our new voices. And I think I’m really passionate about empowering other voices. It’s not about hearing the same old, same old experience voices, which is great and has its place. But it’s also about there’s this quite a corny phrase giving a voice to the voiceless, not always the voiceless, but perhaps the unheard. And it’s, it’s about growing together. And I think as as we formed women at England, we wanted to have our own thing, something that we didn’t do before in our regions, and it’s linked to empowering people perhaps that haven’t presented or spoken to audiences before. And it’s also linked to safe spaces because you know, things happen in life and unfortunately, more things have come to my attention in our in the group of women that I work with. So additionally, it’s about giving them strategies. To cope with scenarios that perhaps make them unsafe. And I mean that in a physical sense and in an emotional sense, and in a professional sense. So by by having this new outlook, this is what women, Ed England wants to do, I think it’s given us a whole new fresh challenge, fresh scenario of challenges to meet. And not only that we met yesterday, and it’s about finding out what our communities want. So, you know, hang in teaching, we always say that one size doesn’t fit all. So you don’t use the same scheme in your five schools, or it’s according to need. So it’s about relationship building, it’s about listening effectively, because you don’t have all the answers because you need to know what the situations are that need support, you need to know the areas that need growth. And then it’s about being solution focused through teamwork, through supportive groups. But I also want to say, it’s the women only this, you know, creating these safe spaces and being heard, it’s not because we don’t like men. And there are many men that you know, are co feminists with us. And they’re, you know, lots of great people that are here for she’s, but this particular journey of women and England is actually it’s for women only because we are tired of not being heard, we are tired of being underestimated in our impact. And, and it saddens me that often the people that come to me for coaching are because they’ve experienced inequality at such a level, not just gender inequality, you know, it comes from women, too. But often the people I’m exposed to have come to me because they’re suffering from being mistreated, being treated unfairly. So I think that’s what we you know, and actually, it’s so lovely that we’re meeting you today, because you are a part of that journey. When we initially set up women, Ed, and I’m just in the stage of writing a blog, and reviewing how you’ve grown over that year, since that first experience, and just having this show, Kathleen, you know, there’s lots to show how you’ve grown and, you know, really defined your purpose and in you’ve gone out there fearless, and achieved great things. And what I love, about the way we’ve worked together, just as friends, as professional colleagues, and I mean, friends and and beyond, is that you’re now doing that with other people, you know, so beaming with pride may sound a little cliche, but that’s the whole point of women aid. You know, we impact on a small group, that small group impacts on another small group. And you know, before we know it, we’re across 34 different countries globally. So yeah, I just hope that ripple effect. I know not going to hope I know, it will continue, though I’m optimistic. And I say hope, you know, how can it not except women remain loyal? How can it not?

Kathleen  Cushnie 18:09  

Yeah, it’s… that is so powerful, because we just all get inspiration from one another. And people are doing great things. And I think one of the important things about women, Ed, is that, like you say, so many people doing great things, but they keep it to themselves, because they think no one’s going to kind of want to listen to me, no one’s gonna hear I understand my viewpoint on my perspective, what for me personally, I think one of the things that #WomenEd’s has helped me with, is yes, I was a new voice and getting my voice out there. But as soon as you speak up, you realise that other people are feeling exactly the same way as you, you know, the imposter syndrome. You know, the challenges that you face, everyone, if you can’t kind of keep yourself quite singular and not connected, you don’t realise that or other people feeling the same things or similar, not the same, but perhaps perhaps similar situations. So I think it’s so important that we talk, we express our emotions, we express our feelings. And the key thing that you said really about is this being authentic being an authentic leader because that you can only win by being yourself I think, personally, anyway.

Christalla  Jamil 19:16  

Women trying, you know, to rise up in leadership face so many challenges that, you know, they could be cultural challenges, they could be symptoms, systematic hurdles, and often that, you know, you were talking about the imposter syndrome. It’s, it’s hard that you know, we, we have our own unconscious biases. And I think, through my experience, overcoming a lot of those hurdles was exactly what you said about forming those close connections with other women who can share experiences from other women who have been there who’ve done that, who feel the same as you. And, and that’s how we ask and that’s how we bring about our unique talents and realise that and knowledge our self worth and not Did you know our achievements and acknowledge our impact and start to strategise the, you know, the rest of our journey, and we review and reflect, and we’re not afraid to say, I’ve got it wrong. I got it wrong. And I’m going to do this next time. So absolutely spot on exactly what you said.

Kathleen  Cushnie 20:19  

Yeah. And you know, I was just thinking as you were just talking, like when you think about imposter syndrome, surely, is life in a syndrome really imposter syndrome? Surely, maybe it should be reworded, as I don’t know what to call it, but something that is there as a reminder that, okay, this is the point where if you push through this, you will grow, you know, it’s maybe it’s just a shell that we need to push through. So this is a reminder, you haven’t been here before, it’s okay, just keep going. But what happens many times with imposter syndrome is that it, depending on your mindset, it can force you back into your shell back into yourself. And if we don’t push through, then you know, the joy and beauty and opportunities on the other side will remain entertained. So I don’t know it may be…

Christalla  Jamil 21:02  

…this is the connection is this is the beauty of talking to others seeing things through a variety of perspectives, not being put off by negative experiences, all experiences in power are certainly all experiences teach us perhaps some of them teach us how not to behave. But still, we gain experience by using them in becoming better, better leaders, better people with the ability to see life through multiple lenses, then I agree, it isn’t a syndrome, it’s got a label, everything has a label, whether we agree with that label or not. It’s the behaviours of that label that we try and eradicate together. Because by by doing that, we you, you gain confidence by doing that you gain power. And it’s okay to say, you know, I’m hard working. I, you know, it’s it’s all right to admit all those things. You know, I’m, I’m a real woman, I’m strong, I’m protected by my courage. I know how to cry, but I know how to party and I know how to laugh. It’s okay, to be able to do that. And it doesn’t mean that I shy away from challenge, it doesn’t mean that I should shy away from accountability or holding people to account. It just means I’m good at what I do.

Kathleen  Cushnie 22:23  

Yeah, yeah, you don’t have to be one way. One way is not the only way. You know, we’re multifaceted. So for all of this Christalla because I know you are extremely busy woman, and I’m so grateful to have your time today. So how do you maintain you? How do you maintain, you know, how do you look after yourself? self care and all of that?

Christalla  Jamil 22:43  

That’s an interesting question. And, you know, I’d like to say I’ve got a gazillion hobbies, and I like to read. And as I’ve grown mature in life, I like a bit of me time. So though, obviously, you know, I have I’m married with two children and two grandchildren, I relish time on my own at home or in the garden or wherever. And not that I’m a son lover. But I think having me time and thinking space is great. And you know, I do a few things I like to walk I like to get out I like I go horse riding I like to cook. All that aside. I think for me, is the work I do with my church. It’s the work I do with #WomenEd, even you know, the Chartered College and the network of women that that have grown to be you know, my fellow sisters, that keeps me sane. I volunteer at a women’s refuge that keeps me on track. I think I have a need to feel needed. Which may sound bizarre, but when I needed I feel accomplished. When I support others, I feel I grow. So there’s a big part of my life that is private to me. And you know, my husband will often say, but it’s Saturday, are you going out again, or I feel that Yeah, I want to, you know, I’ve got to go to the refuge today. I’m, I’m at church, I’m supporting that group. We’ve got another women as event I’m on the phone coaching, but that busy is good busy for me. And if I didn’t have that, good, busy. I’m a better person because of that much better person because of that. And I also think that in life, you know, you know, my husband’s from the Middle East and we’ve experienced so many atrocities, which includes, you know, fatalities in in large numbers. I feel I’m grateful for, for what I’m truly grateful and truly blessed to have the opportunity. You know, to gain a qualification to become a teacher at 36 is phenomenal. You know, and I try to empower the community, especially my my mums, And the children I teach that, you know, people can take away family members literally rewards, they can take away your materialistic things. They can take away you know, your home your money. Again, it’s all linked through wars, but nobody can take away what you’ve got up here in your brain. So training and having qualifications of some sort, whether they’re, you know, practical qualifications, technical qualifications, academic qualifications in their life. They’re there for life, and nobody can take that away from you. And that’s why I’m so passionate about where I work, perhaps choosing more deprived more challenging borrowers and showing that the challenges are only there. If we see life through challenging glasses, lenses, actually, it’s probably the most delightful, definitely not probably, the most delightful community that I’m serving at the moment is my N17 postcode community, Tottenham has not only welcomed me in the most serene, unusual, annex unexpected, global pandemic time, it’s also given me a huge amount of worth, and giving that back through giving the children the best we possibly can through their education. And the adults I serve is is halfway to achieving kind of my life goals. Like you say, we constantly review and reflect and, and our journey continues to take another route. Yeah, so yeah, that’s how I look after myself.

Kathleen  Cushnie 26:43  

Yeah, I love that. It’s just…the only words, I can think of the kind of backup, what you’ve just said is that you clearly have a strong sense of purpose. And you’re extremely compassionate, like the things that you’ve mentioned, it’s all about helping others, understanding others through their lens, through their viewpoints. And that strong sense of purpose, you know when you said, I need to be needed. I think it’s that you, you just want to give, you just want to give and that’s your purpose in life through through whatever avenue you you take that, really, and I think…well, you know, I’ve been on the receiving end of that. And you do you just give, give, give, support, support support. And I just think is, is so nice. It’s such a nice way to be.

Christalla  Jamil 27:30  

I’ve been on the receiving end of that, too. And that’s why and that’s that ripple effects. That’s, that’s what I was talking about earlier. Because when you do receive you experience and then you give so it’s all kinds of Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, a great game. Pass the parcel with that fear is that it own the fear find the cave is it is it Brene that said, that so that you choose courage over comfort… sometimes.

Kathleen  Cushnie 27:58  

Absolutely. Yeah. So good, is also what you were talking about, as well, I can, you know, think it’s Viktor Frankl, his book, Man’s Search for Meaning, you know, where you’re, you’re really thinking about them despite what’s going on. You’ve got you and how you can respond to those situations.

Christalla Jamil 28:22  

I’ve just ordered that on Amazon because I’ve met somebody through Twitter through women as I mean, you know, I’m obsessed with Twitter for CPD for you know, reaching out to more women, to more colleagues to more professionals, and somebody who recently found me found my school is gonna run some chess lessons at school also recommended that book to me recently. So I literally love my audit. And so yeah, I will be feeding back in another one of these sessions. My dear, I’ve read that Yeah,

Kathleen  Cushnie 28:57  

Great! And you’re very welcome back anytime. Christalla talking about resources and things that you dip into what’s the best resource that has helped you throughout your many years?

Christalla  Jamil 29:07  

I don’t know if there’s one to be honest. I think I’m I like to read and I like to steal. So I think that by networking by opening up to you know, when when I’m looking at school improvement, I go to the EEF. I look at research, that’s why I joined the charter college because Alison Peacock is a beautiful person. So I knew Allison from my days back at Oakthorpe, actually, and when you work with like minded people, do you know everyday is a good day. So using research to guide my practice to guide my behaviours because then I Christallaify them, because it doesn’t always work in its entirety. So I I’m led by others experiences that, you know, were backed up with evidence and then I make it fit myself for all my communities and then I think the whole thing about networking about bringing challenge to yourself so that you can bring conflict to scenario so that you can question procedures and processes in place. And I don’t just mean for sport improvement, I’m talking about personal growth, growth of others, I think really is my response to that.

Kathleen  Cushnie 30:29  

Brilliant that is a great, great, great, great answer. But we’re coming to the end. And this is where we do our free deep dive statements. And then I just throw in a random question. There we go. Just also honestly, the first thing that pops into your mind, so Okay, I’ll try. What I love about my role is…

Christalla  Jamil 30:51  

….oh, gosh, building relationships, building relationships and making a difference.

Kathleen Cushnie 30:56  

If I could change one thing in education, it would be…

Christalla Jamil 30:59  

…the ability for everyone to listen to each other effectively, to hear it from front liners. And to know that leaders know, the best solution to any challenges their schools, their communities face. Yeah, cuz they live in it. Right? Gosh, yeah. Yeah. And it’s not the same solution for every setting. Yeah, you got to be in it to understand it. And my voice is important, because, because it’s my voice, because I’m patient. I’m empathetic, I know how to love. I’m resilient. And I’m optimistic.

Kathleen  Cushnie 31:40  

Agreed. And then the question, your random question is you have the ability to alter opinions in society. Who do you tackle first, the pupils, or the parent?

Christalla  Jamil 31:51  

That’s an interesting one, going with pupils, because through the pupils, the parents come on board. And then again, I’d say kind of do it simultaneously, because you’ve got to be a clear communicator. So I would say, if I had to pick one, I’m going with pupils. But I think through osmosis, it’s actually both that are impacted anyway. By going through the pupils. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah. So true. Actually, he can, it’s all about perspective isn’t. But we often say I just because we often say that, you know, parents are hard to engage. And then that’s where our, our powers lie with changing that narrative through the children, because every parent loves their child. And every parent doesn’t listen to their child, hence my response.

Kathleen  Cushnie 32:39  

Brilliant, very, very reflective. And deep there actually has a great response. And so as we come to the end, and you did mention Twitter, how can people connect with you online?

Christalla  Jamil 32:51  

Oh, I’m easy to find. My handle is @ChristallaJ. So you know, I’m on Twitter, I don’t do Facebook or Instagram I that’s the only form of social media I do professionally, I do take part in. So follow me, send me a message. And it’ll be great to connect to grow women Ed even further. And let’s work together this family that we belong to is a great family. Fantastic. And I’ll also drop the handle for #WomenEd in the show notes as well.

Kathleen  Cushnie 33:21  

Christalla, this has been fantastic! Thank you for again for your time, because like I say you do so much. And time is precious time is invaluable. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you were inspired and gain some insights, which can help you as you progress on your journey to share your key takeaways on social media and let people know what resonated with you. Remember to tag me, I’d love to see your thoughts and subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already. Thank you for being here. Until our next episode, be safe, be well, but most importantly, keep growing.
Remember, there is power in your voice and it all starts with a conversation.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai