Kathleen, Author at Voicing Education

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Kathleen Cushnie 0:09
Welcome to Voicing Education the podcast, I’m Kathleen Cushnie founder of Voicing Education, a Senior Leader in Education, Trainer and coach. My mission is to help new leaders and teachers aspiring to leadership, become confident in their ability to lead others successfully. Whether you’re a new or aspiring leader, this podcast will help you to become confident in your ability to lead others successfully. We discuss key themes in education and personal development and how this can impact educational leadership. Let’s move that needle from confusion and overwhelm to clarity and inspiration.

In this episode, I speak with my sister Joan Cushnie. For Joan teaching is her second career. She became a teacher because she was passionate about contributing to, and improving the learning outcomes and educational experiences for children. Joan is currently the math lead at a primary school in North London, and a math specialists within her Academy trust and leads training on greater depth maths mastery across her local borough. More recently, she has just taken on the position of phase leader for years, four, five and six. There is no doubt that Joan is wholly committed to raising standards in education, and is always looking forward to new opportunities to enable her to do this.

Kathleen Cushnie 1:28
Before I start I just want to thank Financial Joy Academy, who are sponsoring this episode. Financial Joy Academy, also known as FJA to its family members and I say family members as FJA community really are just that. Financial Joy Academy is run by husband and wife team Ken and Mary Okorafor. They offer a private space for action taking Dream Makers who want to achieve financial independence.

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Kathleen Cushnie 2:36
Hi Joan, welcome. So I think I’ll just highlight quite quickly, Joan is my sister, and I call her, so she’s called Joan, but as a family I call her Joun and so for our interview today, I’ll be saying Joun but that’s the family thing, and I think it’s very unnatural for me to say Joan, it just doesn’t flow naturally. So, for the interview, I’ll be saying Joun and, obviously, I’ll be referring to my sister, and we’re going to be having a normal conversation which we do every week we always talk about school. I mean 90% of our conversations are about school, and how we’re doing and how we’re getting on. So you guys will just be listening in a normal conversation between two sisters and two teachers to educators to leaders. So, first of all, Joan, what I want to find out is what led you or what has influenced your decision to go into teaching because this is your second career. I think it’s just really important to just know and highlight what led you here. Why did you go into the teaching profession?

Joan Cushnie 3:38
Well I’ve always wanted to be a teacher, I used to love sports, and I used to love maths at school so I thought hey might as we’ll combine them. And I did apply to St Mary’s to do maths and PE in secondary school, however my path took me a slightly different journey. It was always in the back of my mind so when the opportunity came up about 10 years ago, to change careers, I’ve had a life working in the city, and I was made redundant. You know what I am actually committed to teaching, I’m going to do what I’ve always wanted to do, so I applied to teacher training to do primary school, and I’ve got a position so that was it, my journey started there.

Kathleen Cushnie 4:17
Okay so you’ve told us about your journey into teaching. What really ignites you about your profession, why, why do you do, why as you get up in the morning and go into school?

Joan Cushnie 4:29
I just love…I’ve got a love of teaching, love of taking children on a journey of seeing them progress and yeah I just yeah, just being there in the classroom, the enthusiasm, motivating the children to do well, and now as a leader motivating my colleagues as well, to do… as I’m a maths lead, motivating my colleagues in, you know, teaching, and guiding them and I’ve been focused there. Yeah, I just enjoy it. It’s just enjoy that have an impact on the children’s learning and the enjoyment they get out of it and the enjoyment I get as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 5:02
So in terms of, because I know you just mentioned that you’re a math lead, can you tell us a bit more. How did you become a maths lead or have you had any other subjects and tell us about that journey?

Joan Cushnie 5:12
I have actually led to another subject I lead Science, Computer Science. But I must say, when I actually interviewed for position I actually put it in there. At some point, I’d like to be maths lead, so I had that journey, in my mind from the offset in that first interview to get an NQT position I actually said, I would like to be maths lead at some point, maths is my passion so it was always there. In the first couple of, or the first year I kind of asked my head at the time or deputy head at the time. Please can I be maths lead. So you’ve only been here a year why don’t you try another subject. I think the following year, kind of got computer science because I’ve got a computer science background, but it was always, always in my mind. To the point where everybody in the school knew, that I wanted to be the maths lead. So when the job came up on the board, one of my colleagues came up to me said your jobs on the board, and that’s where my journey.. being their started and I’ve been absolutely enjoying it all the way.

Kathleen Cushnie 6:13
That’s brilliant! What I like about that story is that you said that you started with the goal in mind. So you knew deep down that you always wanted to go that, despite computer science being your background and what was really nice as well is that what I was hearing is that you had the support of your colleagues, because when the job went up on the board, they asked, well, your colleague actually approached you said YOUR job is on the board. So it’s really nice that they had that belief in you, and that, you know, they were kind of supporting you along the way. So in terms of support, then in your school, who has been a support to you as a leader?

Joan Cushnie 6:54
The previous maths lead has been very supportive. My head has been very supportive of my journey, and also my colleagues as well, it’s quite nice that they will come to me for support and they’re supporting you all the way as well, that kind of gives you that sense of, actually, yes they are listening to what I’m saying I’m being supportive to them and they’ll be motivated by what I say. And it just drives me further and further on. So it’s that kind of collaborative work, as well as my vision of maths going through as well so yeah, I think it’s that whole thing me supporting them, and them being open to my suggestions and taking, taking it forward.

Kathleen Cushnie 7:32
Okay so that’s really important, like, you know what you’re saying about the collaboration there. Now would you say, collaboration is one of the things that you say stands out as an important attribute of a leader?

Joan Cushnie 7:46
Absolutely! Absolutely! And you know, you just need to obviously as maths lead I have a vision and I communicate my vision to to the team across the school, but I’m having them. Being able to work together to achieve that vision is important, they have to be on board. And it’s not just collaboration within, you know, within the school we’re part of a MAT as well, and collaborating with other maths leads is a key thing, as well. In order to you know learn keep learning on the job. That’s really important actually what you just said keep learning on the job.

Kathleen Cushnie 8:20
So how have you kept learning on the job through your journey?

Joan Cushnie 8:23
Most recently I was actually on the NPQSL, which I really, really enjoyed, and that kind of improved my skills as a leader, and yeah, my skills as a leader, actually, but in terms of teaching, I’m always, always talking to other teachers and they’re talking to you. They’re just keeping my knowledge, current reading and talking about it. Yeah, you know, just keeping it current, and also just seeing what happens. What goes well in the class and classroom, it doesn’t go well and you know adapting it, and just being reflective all the time, but the core of it, whatever my learning is and what I do as a leader, as a teacher is always like thinking about the impact it will have on children and just ensuring that they enjoy being in school.

I’m actually known as the math lady, and quite interestingly it’s just really funny. This happened the other day, I was in a PE lesson in the hall, and the child was walking past to go to the toilet, and they just stopped me pointed at me and said, What’s 12×12? 144. They went well I know 3×3 is 9. And you know what, I know all my times tables. That’s quite nice. It’s not a child that I teach, but he knows I’m the maths lead and, you know, it just has that kind of sense throughout the school which is lovely.

Kathleen Cushnie 9:32
There’s a few things there so I’m going to just break it down a bit so I’m gonna start with the last point is that, clearly, you’re passionate about leading maths because even the children have a sense of your passion, and you know want to talk to you about maths which I think is really important. So it seems like you’re having a ripple effect in terms of your leadership, impacting the children, impacting teachers. And you also mentioned that you meet with maths leads across your MAT. I just want to go back because you mentioned adapting and the importance of learning, tell me a bit more about how you’ve had to adapt, and how you bring about that for leadership? So why is that so when I say, adapting, why is that crucial what you say in terms of leadership, why, why do we need to adapt as educators?

Joan Cushnie 10:18
Because we can’t just go on you know, as a leader but you have a vision of what you would like for you know, in your classroom or for yourself in the subject, but we can’t do it if you haven’t got everybody on board so you might need to adapt in terms of the way that you motivate people, you inspire people.

Kathleen Cushnie 10:35
So, when you say adapt, because I think that adaption and change is something that sometimes, as leaders, as educators, some, not everyone is able to do that so quickly. So, just for people that are listening because I think it’s something that a lot of people may struggle with in terms of adapting and you mentioned about you may have to adapt the way that you are. Do you mean when you say adapt about communicating your ideas?

Joan Cushnie 11:06
Yeah cuz everybody will receive your vision in slightly different ways so you need to ensure that everybody is on board and you may need to, you’ve got your journey but your A to B, you know what I have in my mind A to B where I’d like us to actually go, but you may have this clear vision in your mind but sometimes you need to change your path as you get to the end journey to ensure that everybody is actually on board, but more importantly that everybody is achieving the goals that you would like to achieve in terms of the impact of the children. I mean if you think about it what happened just recently in lockdown, you kind of had a particular vision in your mind, but it had to be adapted in order to achieve that goal, you know.

Kathleen Cushnie 11:06
You need to be able to adapt to the situations that arise and in front of you. So, in essence what you’re saying is that even though you said you mentioned that you want to go from A to B, you always had your goal in mind, that really the journey isn’t linear, there are going to be curves along the way because you know you have to adapt to the situations that are presented in front of you. So talking about adaption, and being able to change, as a leader, how have you overcome any obstacles that have been brought your way?

Joan Cushnie 12:15
I suppose just being resilient, and kind of getting advice along the way into trying to you know keep that confidence up in knowing what you would like, and seeking help to get there and do learn and along the way, it’s really a lot of reflection, isn’t it as well, isn’t it, what you would like to achieve is not quite get it straight away. It’s like seeking advice and getting whether it’s coaching or reflecting on what you want. Being resilient and keeping that confidence, keeping that confidence there. I think it’s listening to others around you as well. And using those resources that are around you as well, and thinking that you can actually do it all by yourself. You know a lot of it has to come from you but you can’t always do all by yourself, but just having that support around you, and knowledge will learn from the knowledgeable other I suppose, really, to use that to go through but know what you’d like to do, but listen in as well as in those professional dialogues and things like that and there’s as I said, I think those little chin wags with you know with you or others that can help you along the way. But knowing that you do sometimes need to change and be reflective in order to keep moving forward.

Kathleen Cushnie 13:25
You are so right. Knowing that reflection is where you grow and you think back, and you may adapt. You know, your actions or whatever, but one of the key things that you mentioned there that I think is really big, big, and to highlight is that asking for support. Because I know that as teachers, we want to take on the whole world when we begin to lead we think I’m here we can solve this problem, that problem is problem, and you have mentioned about sharing the vision, but still it’s almost like you become the Superwoman or you know super person, and you want to kind of make sure that you’re holding that flag, but sometimes you’re gonna, you know, come face those obstacles. But the key thing there you said is to ask for help didn’t you.

Joan Cushnie 14:09
Also one of the other things as well in terms of, you know, talk about holding the flag as well. If you do know what your vision is, but it’s also allowing yourself and others to take risks, and learning from experience that you have as well along the way, because you might think. Not everything is black and white is it? You kind of see your vision as black and white. But there are those grey areas and maybe take the risks in order to you know learn from them and go forward.

Kathleen Cushnie 14:33
Okay so what risks have you taken?

Joan Cushnie 14:36
One of the risks I think I’ve taken is. And one of the things like standing back a little bit, but setting the goals and then just standing back a little bit and allowing others to kind of do it if that makes sense.

Kathleen Cushnie 14:52
Could you just elaborate on that a bit more. When you say standing back, metaphorically, so what do you mean by that?

Joan Cushnie 15:01
I’m doing what the children that’s when you ask the question, you know when you ask a child, the question and then they would say they have a little thinking time in order before they actually say what they’re going, going, going to say. So when I say standing back is that when you kind of motivate and inspire others sometimes you want to tell them particularly what you want them to do, but it’s kind of given them the tools and the skills to do it standing back and allowing them to have their journey as well in their knowledge, that makes sense.

Kathleen Cushnie 15:34
Yeah, that makes absolute sense, and why, why do you think that’s important, as a leader, do you think, because I think that’s a really, really important point. You know, allowing others to kind of find the way for themselves and make the discoveries like like you said, for children. That’s crucial development in learning, but how has that for you, enhanced your leadership skills?

Joan Cushnie 16:00
I think as a leader, which is different to being a manager you want to focus on the people and inspire them rather than saying manage them and kind of micromanage somebody to do this do this do that do that, you’re there are to kind of inspiring, motivating, their teaching. You know you’re there to kind of inspire, motivate their teacher focus on the person, coach them so you know you’re not, you’re not kind of micromanaging them, you’re kind of given them the skills and motivating them to do the job better.

Kathleen Cushnie 16:32
So you’re empowering educators then would you say. So, in terms of empowering others who empowers you?

Joan Cushnie 16:58
You know what, again it’s the people around me, you know empower me. If I do, you do, you do, you know, you do you’re a fantastic leader. You do empower me. You know and also as well my, my current head in my school, empowers me, you know, I have lots of conversations with with them about my thoughts about things, and I can, it’s quite nice because I can just go into go go up to her and say well I think that possibly we could do this or do this. I’m not kind of hindered by any boundaries. I will just kind of talk about things that I think would be, you know, ideas, and then she’ll come back to, you know what that was a good idea I’ve spoken to so and so about that or spoken to so and so about that. So I feel that I can, can talk and suggest things about me, which gives me a sense. Yeah, which gives me a sense of empowerment.

Though I will have, you know, lots of conversations with my head. Sometimes I’m just walking by doing my tea break but at the end of the day, and I’ll pop in and I’ll say, how was your day, and I’ll say, well you know what I’ve been thinking about possibly doing this or doing that. What I really, really enjoy is that she’s open for conversation, and that makes me think, and I give her ideas. I’m not sure what I think I’m giving ideas that will be taken forward, but I’m also learning from her all the time and it’s quite nice that being able to have an open conversation, just the way that I have open conversations you know with you in some of my other friends who are teachers who are leaders.

But the key thing for me is that I feel that I’ve been listened to, and then I do see some of those ideas come in through within what we do within school, which is, makes me feel that I am adding to the adding to the process, but it definitely does make me have confidence and I feel more empowered as being a teacher, and being a leader and growing more and more as a leader. So you know as a leader, one of the things is, in order to grow, is to ask why? So that’s why we’re doing something so that you understand what you know what the journey is what you’re doing, rather than saying and what are we doing? But why are we doing this? Question it, so that you kind of learn more from it and you can adapt it to move forward.

Kathleen Cushnie 19:12
Yeah there’s a few things there I’m gonna dissect so one of the things that I want to quickly pick up is what you were saying about your voice. So, as you know, voicing education and using your voice is very important to me particularly, And also encouraging that for others to do. So you saying how you when you have those conversations with your head, how that conversation flows, and you’re learning from her, but equally you feel that you’re listened to what advice would you give young or new leaders in terms of speaking to their head because some teachers find it hard to approach their heads. How did you find that how did you become comfortable with doing that?

Joan Cushnie 19:59
I suppose it’s the environment. It’s confidence as well as just being able to think that whatever you say is not necessarily going to happen, just being comfortable in saying how you feel about something. Yeah, so it’s not that you go in and say what I think I would like this to happen, is what I’ve been thinking about this, and it’s having your thoughts have started off by just saying your thoughts, it could be about your day in the classroom, or what you’ve noticed within your year group or within a particular subject when you’ve been teaching it, you can start from small things, what you’ve noticed, or using your experience from, you know, because you know you know I came into teaching late it’s kind of use my experiences from my other jobs that I’ve been doing saying well actually, this might work if we do this way and just given that as a thought. And, you know, they kind of ask you further questions just developing that. But usually, for me it’s just starting with a small thought, but also it’s being honest in what you are saying, you know, and coming from where you are because it’s like the game that you’re playing in the classroom. But yeah, it’s just being honest in how you feel about something I think, but not necessarily feeling that everything you say needs to be actioned upon.

Kathleen Cushnie 21:14
Yeah, so being your authentic you, basically sharing your experiences. Sharing your feelings and how that really has impacted you as an educator. You mentioned that, you know, you alluded to your experience in your previous career. So would you say, thinking about teaching as a second career. Would you say that it was the right choice for you?

Joan Cushnie 21:43
Yes, definitely, definitely. But you know for me and I have always wanted to be a teacher, but a lot of the skills that I’ve had in previous in my previous jobs has kind of helped me here as well as my as my journey to be a leader in it, in education and what I’m actually doing. So most definitely a lot of experiences have obviously is in a different environment so you need to change it around a bit, but yeah, definitely. It’s a good time in my life to become a teacher I’m glad.

Kathleen Cushnie 22:11
Sorry you mentioned those skills that you had in your previous career could you give us some examples. If anyone’s listening and wants to do teaching as a second career, what skills would you say easily transferable?

Joan Cushnie 22:24
Teamwork. Teamwork skill of teamwork you know working in a team in, in a, in a school, and, you know, ‘no man is an island,’ you know, that phrase, ‘no man is an island’.

So often you find that an NQT will come in and they want to kind of prove themselves. I think I can do it, I can do it, and just want to do it all. I think it’s important to kind of reach out to, you know the other teachers which they’re not just not just necessarily your mentor that you have as an NQT, but the other teachers whether it’s in your year group or the year above or below, that kind of sense of, you know, establishing that teamwork, from the offset.

But also that as well, being you know, no matter where you are within your career, actually start developing your leadership skills, from that point because you can lean on different things in different areas. You don’t have to be the whole leader from the outset, and I think some sometimes NQTs feel that because they younger or new to the job or whatever that they can’t start developing those leadership skills in those small ways. And that’s kind of thing that I gained when I came in, yeah I was an older NQT and I kind of use the skills that I tried to do in order to kind of develop my teamwork and my leadership skills and I think that confidence, you know, that experience kind of helped me even when I looked at the…doing the computing curriculum, I use the skills that I came from my computing environment. These those skills in order to help refine the computing curriculum.

Kathleen Cushnie 24:01
You mentioned NQT but I think what you’re saying applies to all teachers really wherever they are in their journey.

Joan Cushnie 24:06
Yeah, because you’re always learning, aren’t you. You’re always learning and everybody’s different. Everybody will develop different areas of teaching and teaching standards in a different timeline and different in a different way. As you go through your journey maybe stronger at this, this particular thing, and the scope becomes stronger as you go along, and it also depends on your what year group you’re in or what team you’re in.

Kathleen Cushnie 24:33
Yeah, you’re so your so right there. Again, it’s going back to being able to adapt to the environment that’s around you which I would say is a key skill as a teacher as an educator and as a leader. So, what is the one conversation Joan that you instigated that has had a huge impact in your career? What’s that one conversation?

Joan Cushnie 24:57
One conversation I’ve had that had an impact on my career. Can I be the maths lead please? I think I had that conversation several times but somebody else is the maths lead Joan. I said, ‘yeah I know’. And I can remember saying, ‘Well, how about making that person, a higher up maths lead and let me be the support person.’ I had all these different ideas that I could come back with year after year, until I finally got it. And for me, I suppose that’s one of our core skills is determination and resilience, and I absolutely put that in, into into play.

And it’s kind of asking for what you would like. Because you always achieve what you actually see in front of you or you kind of, you know, make that mood boards and it’s something that you want, you kind of put the mood boards in order to get what you actually want. And I keep talking about maths and it’s not just the maths, it’s actually about being a good teacher, but also as well. Yeah, it’s having those conversations letting people know what you would like to do, you know, in order to move the journey forward, you may not always get it but keep on asking and keep on showing that you can do it, it’s important to say you’re saying well actually I want that without adding the showing that you have the evidence in can do it too, or you need to do it.

Kathleen Cushnie 26:27
So speaking up and taking action.

Joan Cushnie 26:30
Yeah, speaking up, taking action. Yes I like the way you put that, speaking up and taking action. Yes, absolutely. And just having that determination. The confidence and as we, as I keep saying that support around you.

Kathleen Cushnie 26:44
What have you had to overcome that has enabled the most growth? So in terms of what lesson has been the hardest and the most difficult that has given you the greatest growth as a leader?

Joan Cushnie 26:58
Um, I suppose. When you come in with a suggestion as a leader, and you think yeah I’m gonna do this I’m gonna do this, but you sometimes you’re kind of met with resistance. And I suppose that’s one of my, one of my hardest lessons been able to not take it on a personal level, and just kind of overcome that as a personal thing and then look at different ways in which you can support those teachers that possibly or, you know resistant or unable to do what you’d like them to do. I suppose it’s kind of adapting my leadership style in order to support all people, in all circumstances and I think that’s probably one of the hardest, hardest lessons but one of the key things I’ve learnt. And if not, everybody will hear your message the way that you are saying it, it is important for you to be able to change, adapt the way you say that message keep to your key message of course, but kind of adapting the way you say it in order to ensure that everybody is on board with and comfortable with it, and those that are resistant to it you just don’t take on a personal level, but go with what you need do.

Kathleen Cushnie 28:13
That’s so important. That’s a good answer.

Joan Cushnie 28:15
That’s one that has taken up I think for me along the way, I mean I’ve got better as I’ve gone on which is a good thing. Again, gaining support from others, but that’s one of the key things at the beginning, I would take things personally when you know when I say, you know we’re doing this and it never used to happen. But one of the key things is not taking into the personal. Just as you, you know, it’s not you, it’s maybe the message and the way that you’re delivering it and the way that you’re supporting others to achieve that.

Kathleen Cushnie 28:42
Okay great. So what I’m taking from that then is that we shouldn’t as leaders take things personally, because something is usually not about the person. It’s about what could be actually going on to that person themselves actually in the context and the lens that they’re viewing your message through, which I think is a key, key thing here,. And sometimes as leaders, where, you know, again, got the cape on. You want to make an impact, but sometimes the message that you’re delivering may not land, with the same intentions as you intend.

Joan Cushnie 29:21
It’s that isn’t it it’s not taking it personal.

Kathleen Cushnie 29:25
So, as we’re coming towards the end, I just want to quickly talk about, there’s a lot going on. I think for you in terms of you’ve said you’ve completed your NPQSL, you’re now maths lead but you kind of haven’t spoken about the leadership that you’ve been doing across the MAT. Just tell us very quickly about that, what, what is it that you’re doing as a leader across the MAT because I think that’s really important, because it’s not just in your school, what are you doing outside of the school?

Joan Cushnie 29:56
Well, I’m currently the chair of our MAT’s, good practice meeting across the MAT, and we started about three or four years ago, and it was very active, and it’s really the good opportunity for us to share our good practices, and for us to think of a goal that we would like or an objective that we’d like to achieve across the MAT, and I’m there kind of helping to kind of, you know, push that objective through, and keeping us working together as a group to achieve a common goal. It’s been really, really, really, really instrumental in developing my leadership skills further doing this. And having that kind of working collaboratively with others, but pushing my colleagues forward and ideas and bring this all together. Very, very, very instrumental in developing my leadership, leadership skills, not just in that, but having that ability, or opportunity to bring us together, not just locally as a school, but within across the MAT.

Kathleen Cushnie 31:01
Okay, going on as a teacher, how do you maintain you, what do you do for you to keep yourself, you know, at your optimal self, what do you do?

Joan Cushnie 31:12
I like to walk. I do lots of walking. I do a bit of pilates and sit and read and listen to music as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 31:21
So, what’s been the best resource that have helped you along your journey, maybe might have a book what’s what’s, what helps you?

Joan Cushnie 31:30
You!

Kathleen Cushnie 31:33
That’s very kind.

Joan Cushnie 31:36
You have. You know what you have you have been a good resource, you know, you know, you know that and just having those conversations with you about you know what I’m doing in the classroom where I’m at, is just being, you know, being real, being really, really key for me.

Kathleen Cushnie 31:55
So having those conversations with people around you, just to kind of spur you on. So really, a human resource are very, very important, and you know it’s having that network around you that can encourage you along the way. Would you say that’s been….?

Joan Cushnie 32:10
Yeah, absolutely. I must admit I do read, you know, lots of things you know, to kind of, subscribe to the Education Endowment Foundation and The Key, The Key as well and read articles in there and looking at different scenarios. But there it is actually talking to talking to you and also and attending, you know maths, good meetings with other leaders from across, you know, across the borough has been key as well. Which is quite nice as well because one of my next steps as well, is to doing training.

Kathleen Cushnie 32:47
Okay, we’ve come to the last part. I’ll start with three deep dive statements, and a random question. All you’ve got to do is finish the statement. If I was a new teacher again, I would…

Joan Cushnie 32:58
…not work as hard as I did in the first year, and think I could do all by myself but seek out support from others.

Kathleen Cushnie 33:06
What I love about my role is…

Joan Cushnie 33:08
…coming into school every day and seeing the progress that the children make within the class.

Kathleen Cushnie 33:14
Leadership is…

Joan Cushnie 33:15
…communicating, and delivering your vision as you inspire and motivate others to come along on the journey to have an impact on the learning of others.

Kathleen Cushnie 33:26
Okay, last question. You are in a supermarket but can only walk down one aisle to restock which aisle do you take the resilience, positive mindset or clear boundaries aisle.

Joan Cushnie 33:37
I’d take the positive mindset aisle actually, because I think you do need to have that I can do attitude, all the time, and resilience comes along with a positive mindset but having that I can do I can move forward and having that clear goal of moving forward. That’s what I will do.

Kathleen Cushnie 33:56
Fantastic! Brilliant! Okay, thanks for joining me on the podcast, and I hope that you continue to take this positive mindset, and continue to adapt in your career. Thanks Joan nice talking with you.

Joan Cushnie 34:12
Thank you.

Kathleen Cushnie 34:15
Thank you so much for listening. I hope you were inspired and gain some insight, which can help you as you progress on your journey. Do share your key takeaways on social media, and let people know what resonated with you. Remember to tag me, I’d love to see your thoughts, and subscribe to the podcast, if you haven’t already. Thank you for being here. Until our next episode. Be safe, be well. But most importantly, keep growing. Remember, there is power in your voice, and it all starts with a conversation.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Kathleen Cushnie
This is a special episode, which features two teachers who have just like many of you been teaching through a pandemic Maimun has just finished her PGCE training year as a School Direct student in primary education, and is due to start her ECT year in September.

She previously worked as a teaching assistant an experience, which she says, has fuelled her drive and passion to pursue teaching.

And then we have Poppy who has just completed her NQT year. Prior to becoming a teacher Poppy worked as a graduate teaching assistant and completed her School Direct teacher training course, all of this being in the same school that she teaches that at now.

At university, Poppy studied a BA Honours in Drama whilst having a part time job teaching after school drama clubs in various schools in North London, which is what ignited her desire for working with young people.

Poppy has an interest in promoting equality in schools, and providing equal opportunities for children to succeed no matter the circumstance.

So it’s going to be a great conversation, and I do want you to stay tuned to hear the passion that comes through from these two wonderful members of staff.

Before I start I just want to thank Financial Joy Academy, who is sponsoring this episode. Financial Joy Academy, also known as FJA to its family members, and I say family members, as FJA community really are just that. Financial Joy Academy is run by husband and wife team Ken and Mary Okoroafor. They offer a private space for action taking dream makers who want to achieve financial independence.

Financial Joy Academy offers a range of courses, regardless of where you are on your journey to financial freedom. Together with fellow Dream Makers, Ken and Mary support and encourage you, on your own journey, which is what they’ve been doing for me for just over a year now through coaching calls, and their popular 5am Club.

For more information, head over to their website, to take a look at the recommendations from other dream makers. If you’re convinced and want to join our family of Dream Makers, I have an exclusive link, which gives you 15% off your first month, check the link in the show notes.

Financial Joy Academy provides an essential learning for all we know as educators that learning never stops.

And now we’ll hear in this conversation from Maimun and Poppy, what they’ve been learning this year through the pandemic.

Hello and welcome Maimun and Poppy lovely to have you here with us we’re coming to the end of a really really difficult year. And everyone has been experiencing it, as teachers and leaders. And really, I just want to kind of give a voice to you both really because you’ve had two different experiences in school, one of you, obviously, completing your NQT and one of you learning with us for first time in our school doing the School Direct programme.

So, I’m going to…when I address the questions…we can just answer freely so basically we are just having a conversation. So can you just tell us, what has this year been like for you because I think it’s really important that we hear how you’ve… and be honest how you’ve been feeling throughout this this year and for you Poppy particularly because luckily, you’ve been in our school, the previous year as well. How’s it been?

Poppy
I think, massive cliche but it definitely has been a roller coaster. I actually think my toughest term was actually not the term that we were in lockdown but was actually the first term, because I think I was trying to be…I had the classic NQT thing I think of trying to be really organised. I was really striving for the teaching life to be consistent. And then it all kind of hit me that teaching is not consistent, because so many different things happen on a daily basis which completely can change your timetable. And then, along with the added the differences – the added differences – from my School Direct training, like, even something minor, like we, we didn’t have, we have I had carpet spaces during my School Direct year, but then the beginning of this year, I was panicking because I didn’t know how I was going to function without carpet spaces because that’s how I’d learn everything.

I think that was definitely my most emotional term, in terms of like tears. I’m quite an emotional person anyway though so a lot of the time when I’d be crying I just say to my TA, like don’t worry about it I’ll be fine in two minutes I just need to get it out. And then actually I feel controversially, during the lockdown it actually really reinvigorated my passion for teaching. I think it actually calmed me down, which sounds really like it sounds like. It seems like it should be the other way around that lockdown should have been really stressful. I know it was for loads of people, and it’s really stressful, but I actually found that I really missed my children and it made me appreciate what I did have, when we were in class and I read up into the classroom and see my children in real life.

Kathleen Cushnie
So it bought a new sense of appreciation for your role would you say?

Poppy
Yeah, definitely.

Kathleen Cushnie
Yeah and I just, you know when you mentioned, don’t worry to your TA, don’t worry I’ve got to…the emotions will come out. How important is it for you to, to go through those emotions because I think that’s really important because I know that some teachers feel sometimes that showing emotions is almost a weakness, per se, so why would you say that it’s important for you?

Poppy
I think me personally, that’s what I mean everybody’s different, but I’m a very emotional person anyway as in, even when I’m happy…my happiness is so palpable any kind of emotion, I feel like it’s very obvious with me, so I don’t know. I suffer from anxiety anyway and so I’ve just learned it as a technique of, if I don’t just let it out and have that moment of like, okay, I’m just gonna give myself these like two minutes to cry about this thing that really in the long term doesn’t really matter. It will be better, than if I try and yeah try and damper my emotions and then that’s the thing, I’ll let it build up and build up and build up, and then it will get so much worse in my head.

So it’s just yeah it’s just really a technique and I know that’s the thing that crying is kind of seen as a sign of weakness, but I can’t and can be seen as a sign of weakness but I just I honestly think it’s the exact opposite. I think it’s such a strength to be able to acknowledge and deal with your emotion, I actually think it’s a real strength.

Kathleen Cushnie
I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you and that’s why I want to pick it up just to get that message out there that showing your emotions is not a weakness at all, you know, obviously there’s a time and a place to be appropriate. But like you said, building little emotions builds up sometimes can pop and pop in and be quiet, has quite an impact. So, Maimun so really, how have you found this year because you’re new to the school so how’s it been for you?

Maimun
So, before everything happened just knowing about the school that is five form – it’s a big school, and I’ve never worked in such a big school like this because my previous experience I was a Year One TA at a school that only went up to Year Four. And it was such a small school, they only have had about 100 kids altogether. So come to this school I was nervous I was worried, just to be it just to know there’s so many people. I just thought I was going to be overwhelmed, but surprisingly because of COVID. I kind of felt comfortable like I felt like I was in like, like, in, because we had each class was a bubble, and I literally felt like I was in a bubble around the TA of our mentor in one classroom, the children have their lunch times in the classroom, they are only allowed to play with each other during busy times and lunchtime and assemblies were all remote. In a way, I know I couldn’t experience what Poppy experienced last year, as she was a School Direct training, you know before COVID happened in this school, she got experience how the school came together.

For me, I felt like it was, I felt like I was eased into it, you know, slowly I got to meet everyone individually. Before I met everyone, all in one like staff training to be online or meet someone in the staff room or you know, the printing room, and I met each person individually, got to know them individually until I met up all together, that’s kind of nice, in that sense, that’s definitely a positive I’ve got from that but altogether it’s been a test on resilience and faith definitely.

Just, every term is a different circumstance so one term, and social distancing with the teachers with children, of course, following the government guidance on that. And then I kind of felt a bit sad, knowing that we had to do all of this and I could experience what normal teaching is because eventually COVID will pass or the sanctions will pass. But it’s like what am I going to do next. I’ve never experienced carpet time, I’ve never experienced children going to mix tables because they can’t do that. So I felt like I was worrying. The first time I was like when am I going experience this, is it when I’m actually an NQT I’m going to be told. Okay. These children need to have individual groups need to be in like I know Year Two that thing where they thought on the same like kind of current ability they’re working with it as a way of kind of the SATs, you’d get them together, rather than in groups there’s like all these little things I’ve never experienced.

So there’s a constant thing of just remembering that everything will come but at a slow pace and like thankfully now, we’ve been doing a few carpet times here and there, mixed ability seats we’ve been doing. So, but in autumn term, spring term, I was really thinking of how am I going to do, why don’t we continue like just stressing over it, by knowing that things will come at its time and just knowing that there have to have faith, you know, I will learn, whilst they’re going through it, I’m going to keep learning, even as an NQT. Just like Poppy said like, you have all these expectations but it’s really just be reflective over and just to know that things will come in it’s right time.

Kathleen Cushnie
That’s such an important point… just knowing that things will come at a right time because have you found that, in terms of planning and being able to adapt that…in fact, what have you… What lessons have you learned about adaptation and flexibility?

Maimun
So many, so many lessons have been like, I could go on for days. So, just for example spring term lockdown happens so we had to do everything remote learning, and I’ve never used the platform Seesaw and that’s what the school uses, and I definitely didn’t know how to know about that because I was, I was at home, and I wasn’t given training on it I know some teachers had training last summer before that lockdown, but I’ve never had training on it, and I didn’t want to be behind in the because my uni has certain observations that I need to keep on track, I need to show that I am still hitting those teaching standards for my training. And I was just thinking how am I going to do it.

But then, knowing how adaptable the Year Two team in particular work in helping me do like they’ll do Zoom meetings with me, show me the ways I was still able to have separate Zoom meetings with like for example Poppy, you’re also a Year Two teacher, we were able to do some planning together remotely from home, and I was able to email her back and forth, and just all these things of being adaptable and flexible, it’s because the team I was working with were so kind enough to show me how they were flexible and adaptable when I was able to kind of like, see how they did it, and I was just able to model and just, you know, kind of just copy how they did it because I’m like I would never have been able to be that flexible or adaptable. If I didn’t see that in the people that I was working around. So I saw how they were just listening their team meeting, seeing how they spoke to one another. That definitely made me feel part of the team. And it just made me feel that, you know if they can do it. So, definitely be…. adaptable and flexible.

Kathleen Cushnie
And what would you say Poppy, thinking about your journey throughout the pandemic in both years, what what has impacted your journey positively would you say?

Poppy
I actually agree with Maimun talking about…I was nodding my head profusely because the planning from home, was a real challenge but a challenge that I think was really good for me because I think everyone does, like I definitely had a sense of imposter syndrome coming into this, especially since when I started at the school, I was a graduate teaching assistant, I had no experience whatsoever working in a school I’d come straight from uni and then I missed out on half of my School Direct year. So when I started in this role, I had the biggest sense of imposter syndrome.

And then with my, I think, with my planning, every little thing I could do it, I knew I could do it but I do it and I just go over, I just go over and take my laptop to Nuray and say is this right? Is this okay? Every little thing…went to Emily and be like, is this okay? Is this okay? I was still doing that from home, I was still sending Emily constant emails, but I think, I think it needed to be done because I think I would have become too reliant on. I need it. All it would take for with someone that I consider to be an ex…more of an expert than me to just be like, yes, that’s all. That’s all I wanted was for someone to be like yes it’s okay and I think it I think in terms of professional development, I think, in planning. I think that was what was really important for me because I just have to sit at home and do it on my own and obviously you’ve always got the support, but I wasn’t gonna constantly, you know be emailing doing this, is this okay? Is this okay? Is this okay? Because no one has, you know, the energy for that.

Like I don’t and it was nice as well to have, I think, yeah, that Maimun said to speak to Maimun because it was nice to kind of have when Nuray said right let me explain for anyone who is listening who doesn’t know who Nuray is. She said, Oh you’re maths planning was really good last week Poppy so we want Maimun to do the maths planning this week so why don’t you have a meeting and you can explain how you did it, and that was really a boost that I needed because that was the first time I’d ever planned maths because somehow I just always planned English I think it was because I just it was what I felt most comfortable with it was what I preferred. Yeah Nuray said you’ve got to do it, just do maths just do it, and I was like I’ll do it. And then it was really nice to have that and be like okay so if you were to trust me enough to not only do it but also, you know, teach, and offer advice on how to do it so that was really great and I feel like my planning now is a lot more.

I feel a lot more self assured in what I’m doing, which if yeah if the pandemic hadn’t have happened and if the school closure hadn’t happened, I probably would still be going. If we’d all sat around which is which is really nice having everyone there and PPA but I think if we’d all sat around, I’d still be going. Is this okay? Is this okay? for every little thing.

Kathleen Cushnie
So you’d say then having been in that situation it has forced you to kind of grow and rely on your own personal belief, really.

Poppy
Yeah, because I think I did take it I think…that’s I mean, I think it is really important and it’s really nice to have those discussions about planning because people may have better ideas, you know better ideas and you offer, you know, constructive criticism what you’re doing, but also at the same time I think looking back I was taking it to the nth degree of being the most minor things, like, you know that I should have just been kind of like, someone may do this differently, but you can always do something differently. Always do any kind of planning. I think I’ve become more settled in. Sometimes you’ve just got to upload it for the sense of work life balance as well. Sometimes you’ve just got to upload the planning because hours tweaking, hours and hours and hours, they can always be better, but sometimes I’d say for the sake of your own mental well being, work life balance just got to get rid sometimes.

Kathleen Cushnie
Yeah, on that, for you both. Just to clarify, just to clarify who Nuray is, so who is Nuray to you both?

Maimun
So, for me Nuray is another one of our mentors, many of them, I feel like everyone in Year Two, all the teachers, and they’re just mentors to me and she’s also the one.

Kathleen Cushnie
Yeah, just so our listeners know who Nuray is that you’re referring to the Leader of Year Two, your support network there. So just for both of you then… thinking about the year that you’ve had. What do you think is the one conversation that you’ve instigated that has had a huge impact on your growth this year? What is that one conversation?

Maimun
I’d say just one because it’s. I’d say just asking everyone how their well being. I think that’s definitely been a highlight of just knowing that of course it’s this thing that’s been happening so unprecedented. No one ever thought this would ever happen, and knowing that everyone’s keep trying their best to keep going and to keep, you know, teaching, because of course at the end they were teachers and we want to make sure we keep the kids don’t miss out on their learning, but making sure that we have that, you know goal and we’re working towards it, but to also check on each other.

And I feel like just having those little talks just to know how you know if you just ask someone like if I’d see Poppy, the first thing I’ll ask her is how are you? And before I’d asked anything about workload or finding help finding or just ask her how she’s doing. And then sometimes you just hear. We’ll people just open up.

I feel like for me this year in particular, along with all this academic pressure and then just keeping up with all the School Direct training, things, I, I lost my grandma. And that was last December. And I remember just feeling really low, and I’m just speaking to another teacher in the staff room, and she just asked me how I was. And then I just remember just telling her and then she said to me the same thing happened to her. And then, and the both of us were able to support each other, and then we’re able to then help each other in terms of just delivering you know the best and can for the children.

So it was just, I kind of just checking on each other, to make sure everyone is good, everyone is going through things, I won’t go through personal things, you know, life in general and now there’s been this you know big unprecedented COVID that’s added to the universe but what do they call that, what do you call it. Yeah, that’s it. Like just, I feel like it just made me remember, we all here for a job but they’re we’re all here to support each other as well, and it took for the pandemic for me personally to realise that you know have to check on each other.

Poppy
I agree, I agree with that because obviously that’s I mean we were in the same team so we can both concur that during the lockdown especially the year two team, I cannot fault! 10 out of 10 because we would just have, like, meetings just to check in on each other.

And I think really what made me again realise how great our working environment is because those are people that I know that I’ve been working from home, it actually really made them realise how much they dislike their job because they were like, I feel no support from my from the leadership team but my manager. I feel this is like not these are friends that work in offices that have been working from home for a while but I feel like a lot, loads of people that I’ve spoken to actually really made them question their careers, and the job that they were in. It was interesting that often say this to them was about I didn’t say much about like really, once I was just like I really don’t feel the same. I think if anything it’s done. I think it’s done the opposite. Definitely I think that was what, yeah, I totally agree. I think a lot of time the exact opposite of I was like wow, what a great team! Because no one as well there’s just, it was just very, it was just very, very supportive and it was very much like I know it should. I know that’s what it should be.

But, even things like, If anyone was struggling, it would be like, Oh, can you just can you just do this planning for me, I know and we’ll definitely be and everyone just be say yes to everything. Like there was never any…. Even that’s for the entire year, that’s not even during the lockdown, that’s the entire and throughout the entire last year as well.

Kathleen Cushnie
And so, in terms of that thing you find that you feel supported by your team and particularly that comes from the leader or leaders. So, what, what attributes, would you say makes a great leader, from your perspective what, what makes a great leader?

Maimun
I’d say a great leader is someone, definitely, communication, someone who is always communicating very well with everyone, very clear organised, definitely, again, in one of the things I really appreciated in Year Two, was that we were planning, each term before that we weren’t even in the term and it was like everyone knew what they were doing before, like, a month before we even needed to teach that lesson on that week. And then if anything went wrong in the team everyone’s able to communicate back to the leader, and then the leader was able to you know, then allocate different tasks to everyone. And then everyone knew every single detail, even if you didn’t need to know it is just made everything work smoothly, that needs someone who’s organised someone that’s a good communicator is one or two things I think makes, makes or breaks a leader really.

Poppy
Yeah, yeah, I was going to say clear expectations definitely. Clear expectations of you know, the standard that they want for anything but then also kind of the empathy, the empathy. to understand that sometimes difficulties in the outer world mean that on occasion, support might be needed from the team. This is what I want from the planning, this is you know just anything like that but then also the empathy to understand that if someone’s doing it consistently and then, you know, someone might have an off day, you know, might be spelling mistake in the planning, something like that.

Kathleen Cushnie
Yeah, and empathetic leadership is crucial – absolutely crucial. You’re right there it’s about the understanding, because we all make mistakes but you know like you alluded to before, both of you, but the things are going on. So, you know, in leadership, we need to be aware of that and adapt accordingly as leaders. So, but you’ve had a tough year, both of you. So, how have you maintained you throughout this time? How have you looked after yourselves? What have you done? Like if we were to kind of speak back to yourself, at the beginning of this year, what would you say to yourself, in order to maintain your well being?

Poppy
Um, exercise! I rely heavily on exercise, especially the classes that I do in the gym that they charge you if you can’t if you don’t, which is actually really good. If you don’t cancel within 12 hours. Then they charge you, So I feel like that’s a real motivator because if I suddenly I’m like, Oh, I’ve got this report to write I’m not going to do my class tonight. I can’t, because it’s going to charge me and that’s a real motivator because then when I go, I obviously, I just yeah I love exercises. (Yeah, I know not everyone feels the same) but I really love, I love lifting weights and running and all of that. So yeah I feel like that was what especially during lockdown as well like keeping fit from home and…

And I think as well just…This sounds, this actually sounds really bizarre, but there was some, some aspects of we like weekends, during lockdown I actually wanted to take into my everyday because I find that the weekends now and I haven’t continued with it which is as I expected, because I find it the weekends now I like I’m constantly busy, you know like seeing friends I’m out, but in the lockdown, I would just spend all of Saturday morning, you know, reading, and drinking coffee. And then just like I would actually just spend time looking out the window, and it was so really bizarre to see like staring at and looking at people, but it was actually like so enjoyable because I just had these moments of like what am I actually ever going to have the time to do this again. Because I don’t I don’t do it I don’t do it now like I’m constantly doing stuff and I said I was gonna you know, I, you know swore to myself that when things reopened I was gonna make sure you know to take the time at the weekends to do these things that I don’t because I’m just constantly…at the weekends now you’ve got, you know, put your washing on you know just like do all these things you can’t be bothered to do in the week, I mean I don’t have children so I realise everyone listening to this might realise she’s moaning at children.

Maimun
And I’d say for me, it. I second what Poppy said just the meantime aspects I felt like remote learning in particular, I was, I was the only one in my household to actually stay home during that time, because both, both young people I worked with, they were working so we have to be out to just being at home by myself doing the work. I felt like I realised I work well with structure, and as it is school day, because it of course the structure of the children I feel like I do that structure and I feel like you get more done in a school day versus at home, from nine o’clock to three o’clock. It’s just, I just think oh that’s such a short tight space of time to get things done. But when you come to school, it’s like everything can be done through that time. So it’s definitely that shift in mindset, like just remembering, just because I’m in a different setting, doesn’t mean I don’t need structure I need to make sure I have the same structure waking up the same time every day, like you said the morning coffee or looking out the window, you know, things like that I realised I need those things to keep me motivated and I realised I am a procrastinator and just keeping organised is definitely one thing that I’m, you know…What’s the question Kathleen? I think…

Kathleen Cushnie
No you’re answering the question is that how do you maintain yourself? So clearly the structure, is how you maintain yourself.

So what advice would you give to you know you’re coming to the end now you’ve got just a few, a couple of weeks left now so what advice would you give to a new teacher Poppy, who’s starting their ECT training year. It’s actually two years now that they have so getting an additional year. So, so what advice would you give?

Poppy
I think it’s okay for everything, not to be perfect. I think is the main thing. And I think, don’t get disheartened if you don’t see progress in the children, immediately. As in give them time, is what is what I’d say. And just, what’s that, what’s that thing trust, trust the process, is that hold the vision – trust the process. So I said, that’s what I’ve learned, definitely with the children, trust the process because it’s like, on the day to day. I feel like you don’t notice the little bits of the little increments of progress that they’re making. But then when you look back at their writing at the beginning when they started at Year Two, it’s like a different child and it’s those moments when you know when that’s something when six months have passed and you’re like, oh, that’s you’re like, oh, okay, this is this is what we were, this is what we’re doing this for because I think on the daily you can miss the little, you know, the little successes that they’re making. Because you’re so, you know, just preoccupied by getting the job done.

Yeah, that’s, that’s, I definitely say that those are the main things like don’t get disheartened if everything’s not perfect. And don’t expect…that’s what I said, the first time what I was getting emotional about: don’t expect consistency. It’s not going to be. Life isn’t so..

Kathleen Cushnie
Thanks and Maimun?

Maimun
I’d say, don’t come into as a School Direct year. I’d say, don’t come into it with set expectations just be ready for change. Because you’re just, you’ve come into it thinking okay I’m going to learn this through this experience, I’m going to learn this, this experience, but it’s just coming into the mindset of I’m going to be learning in ways I don’t think I would ever be learning. You know, because there’s lessons every in everything you’re doing, as a teacher. There’s lessons just talking to a child having a random conversation with a child. We just learned that you’ve learned something about yourself through that, and I feel like the best lessons I’ve learned are through moments that I never thought I would get those lessons from.

So I’d say just get ready for anything don’t come into this expectation, and know that you have to always be reflective of your learning. You know, you might not hear the best feedback from you know people, just in the sense that everyone wants you to improve everyone wants you to be better, but not taking it personally just seeing that as another thing to reflect on and then coming back stronger and always wanting to be better, you know in your teaching.

Kathleen Cushnie
Great advice!

Poppy
Actually, yeah. All right, it’s coming up. I mean, I don’t know, I think maybe you said something which inspired me also. I think not, like, I don’t know this sounds really basic, but also enjoying it!

Because it’s so…you get so bogged down with like data and progress is important, definitely. But then I think, some days you forget that you’re actually working with 30, really interesting, really amazing children that all have their own individual personalities and really amazing imaginations, and it’s when you do, I think trying like on a daily basis, which is something I, that’s the thing it’s something I’m starting to do a lot more now, which is something I learned is trying to include something…not that maths and English aren’t fun, but you know I was just so focused on maths, English, maths, you know, kind of getting the curriculum done, that those little… those little, you know those are things you would do at school that was what would make the school magical.

Those are things that you can remember, the…I kind of forgot about that and then it’s really that that’s what really brings out their personalities, especially I’m just thinking specifically about elf on the shelf at Christmas, we have an hour from the shelf, and then every day, when we came in, I said to them. Okay, so what do you think happened overnight? Because the elf would be in a different position and they come out with the most amazing things. And it was like and it would kind of remind you of…did you really all have these own like these amazing personalities? I like my class aswell. But yeah I really like my class so you know it helps.

Kathleen Cushnie
Oh that’s so nice! It’s such a nice thing to share, share actually…that’s lovely! Thank you. So what has helped you, that just very quickly just one was one resource I know there’s going to be many. But what’s the one thing that you’ve kind of gone back to, looked at re-read or listen to, like a podcast, website, teaching APP, what was the one thing that you’ve really relied on that’s that’s been your go to? As a teacher, what’s helped you?

Maimun
I’d say YouTube videos on that. For me, it’d be behaviour management, so just, you know, there’s so many videos online of different strategies that you can use, because I’ve always thought that, you know when you use one way that it works the first time works the second time, third time children, it doesn’t work as well. And I realised you always have to have somebody else up your sleeve to make sure you know you have the children engaged, and I felt like, okay I need to watch a lot of videos and just keep just modelling different types of behaviour strategies. And then anytime I’d have somebody else up pop up, I will just go on YouTube and say YouTube teach us this. And it’s just constantly watching it, making notes that would always be like my go to. So, if I didn’t know phonics, the best way to teach phonics, new to phonics teaching like definitely a platform definitely helps watching videos.

Poppy
I never ever thought to do that.

Maimun
It’s amazing! They’re amazing!

Poppy
What a good idea! I was just gonna say Twinkl. Like for a starter activity, like for morning activity if you know you’re doing time that week to give them, you know, in the morning as they’re coming in to get their brains thinking about time. Just something like that I think has been. Yeah, really, really useful. And also Pinterest. I know that’s really random but for displays, and like little creative ideas Pinterest has actually been really useful.

Maimun
But I just also like Twinkl in general, they’ve been really good to promote learning. Lots of things been exactly what we needed in class like one of the things is like, you know the time for your visual timetable for the kids when they came back they updated for remote, So for COVID. So then the visual time thing would say, time to wash your hands, time to sanitise the room, you know, lunchtime in the classroom that’s the pictures and I’m like, they have adapted to you know this time.

Kathleen Cushnie
And that’s our current situation. Yeah, so like ladies going forward, that you’re coming to the end of your NQT Poppy, and you’re about to enter your ECT, two years now. So, if we had to kind of, you think, going forward, right, so you’ve gone through the journey you’ve both been TAs in schools, you’ve obviously then decided, right this is fantastic! I want to take this forward and train to be a teacher.

What now? So how would you like to lead in the future…in education?

Poppy
I would say, definitely I think promoting equality is so important. It is, it is what I’m really, really passionate about – definitely! And, yeah, as you both know, I was so inspired by the assembly, (not assembly training) that yeah I wanted to be an Equality Champion, but I think yeah that was definitely equality across every across all areas of the curriculum, and how we can intertwine it into the curriculum is something that I’m definitely really passionate about. In terms of I feel like I don’t know I already a little bit kind of a little bit so far kind of critique kind of the Year Two, curriculum and thinking you know just constantly thinking okay with this. Are we are we actually breaking down stereotypes? Like are we, challenging stereotypes, or are we just acknowledging that women exist? Like that was that I couldn’t think of a different way to put that, as I said with some of the books, but yes, it is a female character, but is actually…is this female character actually challenging any stereotype? So is it just being might see a woman exist, which I think is a different, I think, which is a different ball game.

So I’d say, yeah, one that’s very passionate about equality and then just going back to what I said earlier why I think a good leader is I’d like to think if I ever was a leader, (I mean, I suppose I lead my children) but yeah, one that models, empathetic behaviour but also as I said sets clear expectations so you know. Yeah, you know what’s expected of you if you’re under their leadership.

Kathleen Cushnie
Great and Maimun?

Maimun
I’d say for me again I just want to second what Poppy said, just clear expectations. Someone who is empathetic, that’s what I want to be. Just to remember, don’t let the job get to me, you know, make sure that I’m empathetic, How would I like to lead…

Kathleen Cushnie
….others and yourself?

Maimun
I’d say, making sure that I listened to everyone because everyone has a different outlook a different perspective. So like for example I have my lens and I see the world and, you know, through my lens, but someone else has different lenses; they see it differently. The only way that I can understand their point of view, is through discussions, through asking questions, because always through discussions you really understand someone else’s perspective.

I like for example myself and Poppy, we had a conversation yesterday when we were just kind of like, talking about how we felt the Equality champion training went. And he was saying how she felt. What she took from that because, of course I was part of it and I was kind of like leading the discussion, she saw it as like an opportunity for her to you know, want to say that she wants to be part of the Equality Champions team, which is amazing! And like, now she was saying how it was, it kind of allowed her to feel comfortable enough to tell her…you know her views, and it’s just that, empowering others through asking questions, discussion. It just makes someone feel heard and your voice. You know, they feel they feel valued, you know, so I feel I definitely, I’d say. One thing I want to make sure I always do is just make sure that everyone has a platform to speak. And just to make sure I’m always open to thinking how they think, because sometimes it’s boring just to think the way you do.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Kathleen Cushnie 0:38
In this episode, I’m speaking with Danielle Smith, who is currently an assistant head teacher for mental health and wellbeing at a large Primary School in North London. In fact, she’s a colleague of mine, and we’ve worked together for some years now. She is responsible for leading PSHE within the school and has implemented many exciting and positive changes, such as regular yoga and mindfulness sessions, as well as designing and launching a new curriculum. outside of school. Danielle is a qualified children’s yoga instructor, and has also completed courses in mindfulness for children. alongside her role within school, she’s also currently studying for her master’s controlled and adolescent mental health, and looks forward to applying this knowledge and skill set to her future endeavours. Hi, Danielle, it’s so good to have you here on the podcast. And I’m so excited to get talking with you. And I just want to say really, that Danielle, you have grown so much. And I’m really excited to share your journey with our listeners. So first of all, before we go straight into all of this, I just want to know a bit about you your background, and how you’ve got into education.

Danielle Smith 2:26
And so I have been teaching now for seven years. And when I was at school, I always really liked the thought of teaching. But it was always I didn’t ever know whether it’d be something that I’d be able to do, because I was so quiet. And so I thought maybe I’d go down there like psychology route, and then look at child psychology. But then I had a year out after school, after I finished my A Levels and volunteered at a primary school. And then that was it. And I was decided I was like this is definitely what I want to do.

Kathleen Cushnie 3:02
Okay, so if you’re thinking back to when you’re at school, how pivotal were the teachers in your growth in your decisions in becoming a teacher would you say,

Danielle Smith 3:12
I absolutely loved, especially primary school. And I still remember, there was a couple of teachers, my reception teacher, and my year three teacher that just really stood out as like being so caring, and just the way they took an interest in me as a person that can I can really, really remember that and feel very valued. And then as always something that I would hope that I could pass on to children that they could remember me and that way too.

Kathleen Cushnie 3:42
Okay so knowing you actually, that has definitely passed on. Because I would say that you’re very caring, you really actually care about the pupils. And you can tell that it for you. It’s not you’re more than just a teacher, you’re actually there to progress them as people, you know, it’s not just about that academia is about them as a whole person. So speaking about that, I know that you’re really interested in mental health. So can you just talk to us about mental health and why that is a passion of yours.

Danielle Smith 4:12
And I think that links back to what I was saying previously about as the whole child. And of course, as a teacher, you want the children to progress well in their learning and achieve and be successful. But I think unless they are comfortable, they are happy, you’re never going to be able to achieve that. And if they’ve got things going on in their life in the background that we aren’t understanding, we’re never going to be able to get them to achieve what they need to academically. I think they are really, really sort of hand in hand with each other. So I think it’s so important just to have an understanding of the whole child on what they might be experiencing and really supporting that as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 4:50
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. So thinking about your knowledge and your growing knowledge and mental health. How has this changed your Thinking on leadership would you say?

Danielle Smith 5:02
I think it was something that I was always quite passionate about, even when I was looking when I was at university and doing my teacher training. But I think the more that you work with children, the more you realise how important that is to be aware of mental health and issues that might be surrounding a child. And as it was something that I was passionate about, I wanted everyone to realise how important that is. And I think it is really important that as a whole school, everyone has that shared understanding of the importance of mental health and well being. That’s something that I’ve hoped to sort of use my passion to deliver that to sort of staff so we can all be on the same journey.

Kathleen Cushnie 5:45
And why, why particularly though, mental health, how has that impacted your leadership? So in terms of leading on mental health, as a leader, why, how how has that impacted your skills in leadership?

Danielle Smith 6:00
Um, I think because, again, it is something that I’m passionate about. But I think I’m able, because it is something I do really care about, I think I feel confident in delivering that as a leader. Because it’s something that I want to be shared with everyone. I think, coming from my background, when I wasn’t very confident, the prospect of leadership could be quite daunting. But I think when it is something that you really care about, and you want to make a difference, that the confidence, kind of you can sort of put that to one side a little bit.

Kathleen Cushnie 6:32
So you speaking about previously with confidence, so could you talk to us a bit more about that? So you’re saying, you know, the passion has enabled your confidence to come through. So what what was the would you say? before?

Danielle Smith 6:49
Yeah, so I think it was in about year two, that I actually got glasses. I just stopped speaking. And I didn’t want anyone to look at me, I didn’t want I didn’t want to speak in front of anyone. And that continued even well, even during my A Levels. I didn’t speak at all. Now, I think I probably was a selective mute. It wasn’t that I couldn’t speak, I just didn’t want to it was just total fear of people looking at me being wrong, and making a mistake and having that attention. So the solution was just not to speak. So to now find something that I feel confident in and passionate about, to speak about is it’s been very rewarding.

Kathleen Cushnie 7:37
Yes, brilliant. So it’s funny, because you would never know that you were a selected mute. And I think, I don’t know, maybe you can say, I would say that having those experiences has enabled you to become the person you are, in terms of how you relate to children in a classroom. What would you say about that?

Danielle Smith 7:56
Definitely, I think it’s made me more empathetic understanding of not knowing what’s going on in the background. It was so easy. I remember my mum would always say parents evening, they’d say, Oh, yeah, Danielle is quiet. She doesn’t speak. And when I was like, okay, would tell me something. Tell me more about my child. And there were some times there was just nothing more. And it was sort of like, there is more to that. You just haven’t chosen to understand what is going on. And so I think to me, I’m like, okay, there’s a reason behind why every child might be a certain way, whether it’s something that maybe might be characterised as sort of naughty behaviour. What is actually really going on there, what is that trying to tell us? Or if a child is really quiet? What is what is going on? I think it’s really trying to understand those children and their backgrounds.

Kathleen Cushnie 8:50
Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned that empathy and understanding, I mean, those two, you have to understand the pupils. So thinking about that in in yourself. So knowing you as you do, why is using your voice in terms of promoting mental health, so important, like not just for children, but for you yourself? Like how, how has that impacted you?

Danielle Smith 9:19
I think it is so easy to be very hard on yourself, and very critical of yourself. And I think that’s something I’ve always, I always want to achieve and do well. So I think I can then be quite harsh and expect very highly. And then again, obviously that can affect how you’re feeling. And I think it’s important to try and practice what I preach sometimes and I’ll talk to the children about having a growth mindset and things like that. But it’s always important remembering that as an adult as well, and then sharing that with others as well. I think it’s important.

Kathleen Cushnie 9:59
And how do you share that with others?

Danielle Smith 10:01
And I think I try to be quite a good role model of that as well, that it’s okay if you don’t know the answer. Or if you do make a mistake. And I think that’s something that within maybe my leadership that if I’m not sure about something, it’s okay to ask a question or seek advice. I hope that other people can see that, see that from me, and that they would do the same. And I do know that people have come to me, and to speak to me about things within mental health, about specific children or within sort of the PSHE as well. And it’s quite nice that people felt like they can come to talk to me about it. So I hope that I’m sort of giving off that to people.

Kathleen Cushnie 10:43
Yeah, it’s really interesting what you said about asking for help, because I’m, really, really do believe in that. Because, you know, there’s many times where you can get so overwhelmed with just trying to struggle through yourself thinking, you know, I need to know all the answers myself. But once she asked for help you realise that you no one, nobody knows all the answers, and two everybody needs help. So we’re all in this together, really. So I think that’s a really important thing, just to highlight. And so thinking about your growth, tell us kind of how you’ve ended up in leadership. So what what’s your journey? What’s your story?

Danielle Smith 11:23
So I actually started at school as a trainee. So I feel like I’m really proud of my journey at the school. And so I started there, and my final placement completed my NQT year, and then started within sort of subject leadership within PSAT. So and then didn’t have that for a few years. And then the hill, that’s something I’m so passionate about. And again, I think that’s helped to make a difference to lead in that as a subject because it was something I really do care about implementing. And again, at first, that was something that was really daunting having to speak in front of a group of people I remember doing the first staff meeting was about mindfulness that I ever did. And I was absolutely terrified. I had everything written down, word for word in a notebook, there was no way I was going to be able to read a script. And, but now, that sort of become a like, I almost feel quite overwhelmed with how much I’ve progressed from then. And that was only a few years ago. And now it’s, I have led training sessions online through through the pandemic. And we’ve, we’ve staff, and it just does go a lot more comfortable doing that now. So I am really sort of proud of myself of how I’ve progressed as a leader and something that maybe I never envisaged that I would do. But now I’m, yeah, I really enjoy it and really loved the role that I have.

Kathleen Cushnie 12:54
Fantastic! I was gonna ask you, actually, so what is it about your role that you enjoy? What is it that drives you…what gets you up in the morning?

Danielle Smith 13:03
I think having that opportunity to be able to influence and make a change. And especially in the school, we’re in having so many children and knowing that you can make a difference to so many, whether it’s on a whole sort of when we do things to like a whole school, that you’re sort of supporting all the children. But if there’s sort of one child that really takes something away from something that you’ve implemented, or a member of staff that’s really take something away for something you’ve implemented, I think that’s such a rewarding feeling.

Kathleen Cushnie 13:36
And does would you say the rewarding feeling, suppose you want to do more and impact others further?

Danielle Smith 13:42
Definitely, it just makes you I think it just gives you even more of a drive to do even more and to achieve more and just put things in place. Definitely. I think it sort of drives that passion even more.

Kathleen Cushnie 13:54
So thinking back to young Danielle, who had the glasses and was in year two, do think that Danielle would have known that she would have become who you are today?

Danielle Smith 14:05
Absolutely not. I can’t even imagine that. I could have, oh, we’re gonna get emotional. That could have been achieved this much. It just like a different person, really. And I think when I went back to my secondary school, and after a couple of years of starting teaching, one of my own teachers who wasn’t very supportive whilst I was at school, because I was quiet. When I said I was a teacher now. They’re like, What? You you? Surely not you can’t do that you didn’t speak and I was thinking actually, you know what, I really wish you could almost see me now and actually, I wish you hadn’t put me down. So yeah, I’m I can’t believe how proud of myself I am actually. It’s definitely a very rewarding feeling.

Kathleen Cushnie 14:52
Yeah, I mean, just working with you. I just, I’ve seen your growth like you know, when you you made the mindfulness staff meeting. And I remember saying, you know, you know, Danielle, let’s let’s lead on mindfulness, I think you should present. And you were like, Oh, okay. Okay. And I remember your your notebook that you had, and you had all your notes written down. So now, I mean, like you said, that was about two years ago. How long ago? Was that?

Danielle Smith 15:21
I think it was three years ago. I think it was like a January inset day. So it wasn’t Yeah, it wasn’t long ago.

Kathleen Cushnie 15:27
Yeah. So. So three, within the three years, you’ve had, you know, lead on your first staff meeting, you’ve led PSHE, you know, really, really well. And then if you think about it now, like, tell us what are you doing now? Tell us about the the key milestones in your journey in leadership.

Danielle Smith 15:49
I think when I realised that that was when we started looking at, like the mindfulness and everything in school, and I realised it was something that I was passionate about. I’ve done some courses outside of school in children’s yoga and mindfulness. And the more of that I did, and the more that I looked at Children’s Mental Health, I was like, I need to do more, I need to learn more. And so I started my Masters in Child and Adolescent Mental Health. And I’m very nearly at the end of that, and then the last last leg of my journey to completing my Masters. So just developing my knowledge in that field even more.

Kathleen Cushnie 16:27
So you’re keen a learner? Is that something that you would say, in terms of becoming a leader, that is a requirement? What would you say?

Danielle Smith 16:37
I think it’s, you’ve got to have that desire to want to learn, and to improve, I think that you always need to continually improve and adapt, because nothing stays, nothing’s going to stay the same. Or think about the last year, leadership, probably from how it was a year ago to now it’s going to be very different. I think having that adaptability. And being able to learn to adapt to different situations is definitely important within leadership,

Kathleen Cushnie 17:02
Absolutely! Adapt to change. Everything is moving. In order to be honest with you. I think in order to grow, we have to adapt, you know, when you’re born, you do not say the same size, you know, your body is always evolving, your mind is evolving, and you’re learning new things every day. And I think that you know that that basic skill of growth and being able to go with the change, because I think sometimes when we don’t move with the change, that’s where the problems come, that resistance really causes struggle. So speaking of struggles, what challenges have you faced on your leadership journey?

Danielle Smith 17:39
And I think it would link back to confidence. Especially to begin with, I think that confidence did hold me back. Because when you don’t seem sure in what you’re saying, it can come across, even if you’re trying your hardest to stay confident. I think when you speak confidently, it comes across people believe what you’re saying they can get on board, especially with something like mental health that has had a bit of a stigma attached to it. It’s really trying to make everyone realise how important that is. Obvious, that’s been a challenge as well. Because everyone’s got their own background, their own experiences. And so trying to get that shared, shared vision can be quite a challenge, if we’re thinking specifically about leading a mental health.

Kathleen Cushnie 18:29
Yeah you’re absolutely right, that is a challenge. Because, you know, to be honest, I think, as mental health has increased in its, let’s say, popularity, in terms of awareness, and you were there at the beginning, because I remember speaking to you back, then four years ago, and you sharing how important mental health was to you in terms of your passion, learning about it. And you knew you recognised actually quite early on how important investing in mental health was for our pupils, and also for staff. So I remember having those conversations back and seeing you along your journey and saying that Dannielle, this is it, I know, it’s gonna make an impact. I know you’re at the right place at the right time. And I mean, like we’ve had these conversations before, we never knew that a pandemic would come, but through the pandemic, it has enabled you to grow even more, because everything, all of your knowledge that you have been gaining has been able to come together and you know, really help others. And so now, where are you now? Let’s talk about you now and where you’re going. So, tell us, is there anything that’s on the horizon in terms of your leadership, and what’s happening for you right now?

Danielle Smith 19:44
Yeah, so obviously, I have nearly finished my Masters. So I think what I’m going to be writing about will really help within. So I’m going to be looking at refugee children and children that have come from traumatic backgrounds, and how that affects their mental health and wellbeing and how that can be supported within schools, I think that’d be something that would be really useful that I can bring into the school setting. And as a result of that, I’ve been speaking to my university tutors. And hopefully, they might be a position to be supporting at the university, as well with other students on their journey in child and adolescent mental health. Because most of the students that have come from sort like a nursing background, but as coming from a school background is quite rare within that course. So hopefully, I can use the knowledge that I’ve learned while working at school, to support others in their journey as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 20:47
Okay, right, he kind of skipped along that quite, you know, humbly. What do you mean supporting our students in the course? Danielle, let’s be bold in your progress. So what do you actually mean, you’re supporting other students. What do you mean by that?

Danielle Smith 21:04
So I was approach to be, hopefully with the restructure, a support University tutor on the course at the university.

Kathleen Cushnie 21:13
Fantastic. Now, this is what we’ve got to do that I always know that it is sometimes uncomfortable speaking about, you know, the successes that you have. Now, before you said, oh, I’ve just been I’ll be supporting some students. But no, Danielle, you’re going to be a tutor, you were approached to be a tutor. That is massive! Now, let’s think back again, let’s think back to three years ago, you would never have known… the MA was an idea. But he would have thought within you know, two years, within two years, you would be approached, so they came to you, to be supporting them in tutoring. That is absolutely amazing. How does that make you feel?

Danielle Smith 22:01
I was in absolute shock. When I got off the the course it was Zoom, the call to discuss, I couldn’t believe I sort of got off the call. And I thought that really just happen. I’ve always I’ve always been really passionate about working with children, but I never saw myself working and training and supporting adults. So that was just a venture that I never saw happening, but is obviously very, very exciting, and hopefully can use the passion that I have to you know, influence others to have passion too.

Kathleen Cushnie 22:35
Absolutely. And is that is that isn’t it, you never saw it happening. So you think about the little steps that we take, you just don’t know what’s coming. So I think it’s really important that we just remember that the one step can lead to something else, another door may be blown open. And it all you know, if you think about, you know, young Danielle in year two, you know, you know, your voice being selected mute that that’s that was then, you know, we can open up and we can grow, but just by using our voice. So what advice would you give to a teacher wanting to pursue a pathway similar to yours?

Danielle Smith 23:11
I think it’s important, again, about being open and willing to try something new. Even if you’re daunted. You don’t know, like, what would you was just saying what doors that can open. And you might find something an avenue that you never thought of exploring? And not being afraid to say yes to things. I think that’s really important to saying yes, giving it a go trying even if you don’t, you might have doubts in yourself. Just try. And you might surprise yourself. And that’s really, really important. Just being open and willing to give give give something ago.

Kathleen Cushnie 23:52
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that, that you said about just saying yes to things because that is when the change happens. And going back to what you said about being able to adapt, adapt, and grow comes from saying yes to things, not too much that you have to be, you know, aware of the boundaries. So, we’re going to come to an end now. So thinking about resources, so helping others. So what’s the best resource that’s helped you along your journey? Would you say maybe a book, an app or podcast, what’s the best resource that you would like to share?

Danielle Smith 24:23
In terms of like, mental health, with children, and there was one book that I read right at the start of my course, which just makes you start looking at things slightly differently. And it’s just about the relate. It’s all about relationships that an adult can have of a child and how important that is in a child’s development. And that book’s called, Why Love Matters by Sue Gerhardt. And I think just reading that knowing what a difference even though a lot of it stemmed from sort of like a mother and it’s a lot of it you can relate as a teacher and the massive impact you can make. So I found that book quite powerful, powerful read.

Kathleen Cushnie 25:06
Fantastic. I’ve got that book actually, I borrowed it from Hulya, who is our deputy head for inclusion. And I haven’t read it yet. So thanks for that, because I will dip into that. Because, you know, again, now the conversations that we’ve had previously, that is really important. Is there anything that you would say in terms of leadership that you’ve listened to or been inspired by that you’d like to share? That’s really tricky question. Let’s think about inspiration. So who has inspired you?

Danielle Smith 25:37
Okay, from outside of a school perspective, and this probably sounds very cheesy. But my mum, she has always just worked so hard, and she’s not within education. But she’s always just had such a passion and the drive to just succeed in everything she’s done. And just put her mind to things. And within her field, it’s very male dominated. So to see her sort of face challenges in that way and become a success. I think that’s quite inspirational as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 26:15
Yeah, it’s important that you mentioned the male dominated situation, because sometimes that can be a challenge in itself. Yes, using your voice to speak up because of how you think it will land in their environment. Okay, so how can our listeners connect with you online? If they want to connect with you. How can they do that?

Danielle Smith 26:35
I have just started a new Twitter account. Because I think it’s really important that I now that I’m really developing that knowledge I want to be able to, and I find Twitter a really useful platform to learn, as well. So maybe that is something I find quite inspirational, you can you can see a lot of people’s success on there. There’s so much knowledge on that when you in within the field of education. So I think that’s a really useful platform that I’m definitely going to be exploring more right now as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 27:05
Fantastic. And then we’re going to end with either three deep dive statements or a random question. What do you want to go for Danielle?

Danielle Smith 27:12
A random question.

Kathleen Cushnie 27:14
Okay, random question. So your random question is, you’re about to walk into an interview for your ideal role. You can take a sip of articulation, or a nibble of focus, which one do you consume and why?

Danielle Smith 27:29
I think the articulation because I think often I have what I want to say and loads of ideas in my head, and it’s just being able to really communicate that in a really clear, understanding understandable, that passionate way.

Kathleen Cushnie 27:47
Brilliant. Thank you, Danielle. Thanks for sharing your ideas and your journey with us. Thank thanks so much for having me. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you were inspired and gained some insights, which can help you as you progress on your journey. Do share your key takeaways on social media, and let people know what resonated with you. Remember to tag me, I’d love to see your thoughts and subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already. Thank you for being here. Until our next episode, be safe, be well, but most importantly, keep growing. Remember, there is power in your voice. And it all starts with a conversation.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Kathleen Cushnie 0:26

What’s life like being a young head teacher? In this conversation, I’m speaking with Laura, the headteacher where I currently work. Since 2016, Laura has been the head teacher in our current school in a highly diverse area in London. Originally an infant and junior school, the two schools were merged to form a large five form entry primary, making it one of the largest in the country with more than 10 years of education experience.

Laura has also worked in the role of an Executive Headteacher leading the school alongside a new one form entry primary in its initial stages of becoming a school. She has also provided training within the Enfield Learning Trust to other leaders, as well as on behalf of the Enfield local authority, specifically focusing on leading wellbeing.

Hi, Laura. I’m so pleased that you’ve taken some time out of the busy day for us to have a conversation. So as I’ve said before, Laura is my head teacher. So we work together on a headship team. And basically, we’re just going to have a discussion about her journey into headship, and what it’s been like for her, and she’ll just be listening to two leaders having a good old chat at the end of a school day. So Laura, can you start off by telling us just a brief description of who you are as a leader?

Laura Pearce 2:22

So I’m quite a young head. So I think I would be described as so my journey into leadership was quite rapid. And I became a head teacher at the age of 28. So yeah, so I was quite young at the time, very enthusiastic, very passionate about the job, all great qualities, but had no idea quite the hill that I was climbing at the time, in hindsight, you know, fantastic experience. But yeah, so that’s kind of how I landed here, really, I started my career in my 20s. And as I said, then went through at about 28 and got to headship was an AHT and a deputy, but quite rapidly got to that point, really. I believe I was the youngest headteacher in the country at the time. I’m a little bit older now; I’m not too much older, but a little bit older. So I was the youngest at the time, I think. But I didn’t mind that to be honest.

Kathleen Cushnie 3:21

No, I don’t think it should make a difference. So speaking of being the youngest head teacher, how has that would you say impacted your leadership style?

Laura Pearce 3:33

I think it’s probably made me very open minded about what leaders should be really. So in terms of what everybody can bring to leadership. So I know, historically, in a school setting, perhaps it was always presumed that you should do your years before you got to be a leader. And that, you know, you required a certain amount of time before you got to be in a position. And I think, I definitely don’t believe that I think everybody possesses different qualities naturally, and that they are able to be a leader at whatever point. And I certainly think experience is very valuable. And you get that along the way. But then as I said, when I initially became a headteacher, I think the kind of youth drive that you have the time and probably the energy is also you know, really fantastic to have in the role. So it made me really value everybody, I think.

Kathleen Cushnie 4:31

Yeah, that’s…that’s real – a strong point, actually. Because obviously, I was there with you along your journey. And I would say the sheer drive that you had, and energy, with the passion was, I think, an added bonus as to being a young head teacher because it was, you know, I’m going to use the word it was gruelling, it was it was tough. There was a lot of work to do, a lot of things to overcome and in terms of talking about the obstacles, I think as a young head teacher, can you just explain some of the obstacles that you’ve had to overcome?

Laura Pearce 5:08

Yes, so the school where I became the head teacher, which is where I, you know, remain, it was difficult, it was in a difficult place, it was actually two schools at the time, an infant and a junior school , it’s obviously, you know, we’ve merged it to become a primary now. But it was in a very difficult place, it was very divided, it was, it didn’t really have one vision. And that had its benefits for me, because I was able to change a lot of things, create a new vision, created a fantastic team that had the drive and vision that, you know, I wanted, and that we could all kind of carry forward.

But, you know, it meant that I had to make some really difficult and unpopular decisions at the time, which, you know, was difficult as, as being so young, perhaps your skin isn’t quite as thick at the time. And, you know, it was difficult, and I had to make those decisions, knowing that the end goal was for the children really, and that be really confident in how I could provide the very best education for them. And I was, I was really confident that that’s what I wanted to achieve. And it was about making those decisions and bringing everybody on board with me. And it was also, with that, it was trying to gain everybody’s respect along the way. So you know, for a lot of people, I was young, I was new, I wanted to make changes. And really, I had to kind of have that thick skin and roll with it before kind of you could see the blossoming if those changes if you’d like, and the minute that that started to happen, and the minute that people began to feel valued, and felt that they kind of fed into that vision was actually when it all started changing.

And, you know, I kind of felt that people were sort of like, oh, okay, yeah, all right, she’s done that, okay, like tick. All right, we’ll go on to the next thing. And then slowly and gradually, people responded really positively and wanted to be here and I would hope liked the leadership that I’d created, you know, both obviously, my own leadership, but also the team around me and what we were trying to do, really.

Kathleen Cushnie 7:26

That’s a good point that you made, actually just breaking it down into steps. So once you got to one stage, and then they saw (in terms of the staff) that that was successful, then you could build on that. So going back to what you said, in terms of the challenge, would you say…what was it that got you through those challenging days?

Laura Pearce 7:47

I think, really my love for teaching, and my kind of passion for wanting the school to be the very best for the children. And I always felt that it had such potential. And I felt that there were people here with great potential. And it, and it really was a bit of a blank canvas, actually, and I think sometimes head teachers can be a bit nervous about stepping into that role, you know, everybody looks for a good or outstanding school. And I’m not sure that if I’d have stepped into a good or outstanding school initially, that I would necessarily be where I am.

Now, in terms of my own leadership, I certainly wouldn’t have had the experiences that I have, have had. So for me, I found that that was the best place to start, I really formed kind of what my vision was, and was able just to carry it through, I didn’t have obstacles in terms of the community in that sense, because the school was a bit directionless at the time, so I was able to go in the direction I wanted. I think that, that other people would face that barrier, I think somewhere else, particularly if you were going to an outstanding school, for example. So I didn’t really face that barrier. I guess in terms of externally, I did face the barrier with my age in terms of being accepted. You know, it was a bit weird at the time when I became a head, it’s a very different picture now.

But when I became a head, you know, only a short time ago, I really was the youngest by a mile. And I find that quite daunting. I’m sure they… I’m sure they were all very accepting. But for me, perhaps from my personal point of view, I did find that quite daunting. But I think just confidence kind of shone through and I’m really understanding that you can’t change everything overnight. So that really picking priorities. And I can’t stress enough about creating the right leadership team because it’s not a one man job.

Kathleen Cushnie 9:44

Yeah. Now that’s I think we have to kind of unpick, it’s not a man, one job, one man job, I should say. It takes a team in order to lead. So can you talk about how you built your team because I think it’s really important that we kind of dissect that, because it’s not an easy thing to do. Yeah. So how did you go about that?

Laura Pearce 10:07

I mean, I think I’ve got a great team. And I’m not just saying that because I’m talking to you Kathleen. I think, I think being kind of a head teacher is not about doing it all. It’s very much about finding the right people with the right skills. And knowing that at times, they will be better at doing it than you will. But it’s very much about putting the right people in the right place. And so you might have that I keep talking about this vision. And I think that’s really important, you might know where you want the school to be and what you want to achieve. But that doesn’t necessarily mean say, you can do it all alone. So you have to find the right people and nurture the right people in order to create that really effective team. And so for me, I totally restructured everything from top to bottom, really, so my senior leadership team, the middle leaders, and really thought about what was going to be the most effective. And I obviously, you know, I work in a big school with you, Kathleen. And it, I had to think very carefully about the structure because of that. So the communication of all the leaders, how was that going to feed back to me without it being solely reliant on me. So I wanted a team that was very united, that I could really, they, they had passion, and I could feed off them as much as they could feed off me. And I think that’s what we did create actually remained as that.

And we often refer to ourselves, so there’s myself and three deputies. And we often refer to ourselves as kind of a corner each of a square, because we all feed something different into our leadership. And together, it really works. And I think that’s when you know, you’ve got something great, really.

Kathleen Cushnie 11:58

Brilliant! And as a part of that square, I would totally agree with you, I think, for us, or from my perspective, I would say it’s the passion, and being kind of, able to talk through the ideas and everything that we have. And you know, because you, you listen, you listen to us talk through our ideas and everything. And we all know where we want to go. And it’s just it just works; it definitely works.

Laura Pearce 12:27

And I think sometimes as well, when you’re in a good place in a school, you know, when we all started, we all had our passions and our agendas, but we couldn’t necessarily put those into action initially, because they weren’t the priority for the school. But now, I think it is about sometimes letting go a little bit. I think over time, I have let go. And that comes with trusting your leaders as well. But I think it’s important that you do let go and you kind of listen to those ideas. And oh, yeah, okay, let’s yeah, let’s go off on that tangent and do that you’re really passionate about that, you know, I’m going to trust that actually, you can do that really well. Like, that’s something that’s great, that would be great for the school. It might not necessarily have been in my vision initially. But yeah, you have to be a bit flexible with that, and really get the best out of everybody.

And I think as well know each other. I mean, we laugh often, you know, we know each other’s personalities now, and there’ll be times where, you know, you might come to me and say, I think we should do this. And I think, you know, why would we do that? But actually and you know, after a conversation very often it will be okay, then yeah, you know, that sounds great actually, I’m not always fixed. I don’t think you might feel differently. But I don’t think I’m always necessarily really fixed, you know, to not to not make that those kinds of decisions.

Kathleen Cushnie 13:55

No, I’d agree with you. And I think that’s the benefit of being open and approachable. Because having those conversations you may get, like, for example, if I had an idea, I may go in with one idea, and it comes out slightly different or the idea’s grown. And I think that’s really important about having those conversations and feeling that you can contribute to ideas and the vision. So, in terms of today, where you are in your leadership, how would you say the experiences that you’ve encountered have impacted you as a leader?

Laura Pearce 14:31

So I think that I’ve obviously become more confident as a leader in the decisions that I’ve made. You know, initially when you’re making the decisions with all the will in the world, there is still a slight element of I really hope this works. But I think I’ve become more confident with you know, that experience and I’ve had the benefit of experiencing a lot now because of the size of the school and where we were. I think I’ve had a lot of experience to inform the decisions that I make. I’ve never, I’ve not always made the right decision, either. So they’ve been, you know, some decisions that I’ve made that, you know, I wouldn’t again, or we, you know, we perhaps, would do things a little bit differently, or the priorities would be different. But I think that’s all useful learning as well, I don’t think you should ever come into leadership and think I’m gonna get this right all the time, because you won’t, primarily because leadership is really reliant upon personal communication, and, and people.

So you have to adapt yourself. And that includes when, you know, you’re not having a very good day, or you’ve had limited sleep, you know, you still have to kind of communicate and do that, and, and, you know, sometimes be a bit superhuman. So some days, you’re better at it than others. And so I think I’ve kind of learned that as well. And to give myself a bit of a break as well, that you can’t do everything overnight, like I said, and you know, and actually, you should walk away and give yourself a pat on the back at times. Because if things are going well, then that is great really.

Kathleen Cushnie 16:09

Yeah. Brilliant. So basically your own cheerleader, would you say?

Laura Pearce 16:12

I think so. And also, you know, I like to cheer on the team as well, we were very, you know, we were very positive. We’re a positive senior leadership team. And, you know, I like it when we, when we all do things well, like, it’s never, you know, particularly when we had our Ofsted and, and it went really well. I genuinely, genuinely felt that it was a whole school achievement. It was not my achievement, I would not have been anywhere without the hard work of the entire school, really. And it was just that very hard work. So I think that’s really important. You know, you might be the leader that you know, but you’re leading people, so they have their part to play as well. So yeah.

Kathleen Cushnie 17:00

Yeah, absolutely. So being the youngest head teacher at the time, how did that happen? Like for… so people gonna say, yeah, she was young; she was 28. But how did that happen? 28 is pretty young Laura.

Laura Pearce 17:15

I think no one else wanted the job. I think, um, I did fall into it, it wasn’t really my plan at the time. I would have eventually made it there, I think because I had such drive to get there. But it certainly wasn’t my plan at the time. And I think it was about being in the right place. So we’ll call it the right place. Now, in the right place at the right time, it was a school that was just prime for somebody that didn’t require a lot of sleep to come in. And, you know, really be so super enthusiastic about what to do. And I had supportive people around, you know, I had a mentor.

And, you know, I had freedom as well, actually, I had freedom financially, we, you know, the school was in a good place. So we had, we have freedom for that. And I was able to make a lot of really great decisions because of that. So it happened, you know, I made my way from a teacher, I worked in the Midlands, I came down to London, and it was in London that I rapidly progressed. And I think as I started this in saying, I think those opportunities might predominantly be in schools where they’re not good or outstanding, where, you know, you can make an impact. And I would really encourage people to do that. Why wouldn’t you want to go somewhere where you can fully take ownership of that leadership? I think, you know, that, for me, was fantastic.

Kathleen Cushnie 18:44

Yeah, definitely. There’s…there was so much to do, and the excitement of what we could create from where we were really…

Laura Pearce 18:53

…definitely, I think, even when we were at the point when we very first started, and the four of us kind of sat down when we’d kind of made our team. And we sat down and we were still in requires improvement at the time. You know, and things weren’t great. You know, there was a lot to be done. But we sat there and the vision was outstanding. It’s never been to get to good. It’s always been to get to the very, very best, which is outstanding. And I think that’s really important.

Kathleen Cushnie 19:22

Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. So on that journey, then Laura, what was the toughest lesson that you’ve experienced that has enabled personal growth?

Laura Pearce 19:31

I think probably that not everybody likes you. I think that you’re going to make unpopular decisions. And that’s just going to be how it is. Not everybody can like you, not everybody is going to agree with you and not everybody’s going to be happy about the decisions that you make. But if you understand that it’s your role, and that you’re doing it with the best intention, knowing what you want the outcome to be and you do it in the right way. So you know that you are listening to people, you are informed about what decisions you’re going to make. And then you can accept that, I think, but it is a hard lesson. It is definitely a hard lesson.

Kathleen Cushnie 20:12

Yeah, it’s definitely, especially if, for example, you are a people pleaser, or you just like to feel good all the time. Because, yeah, there’s some tough decisions that were made. But you know, it’s all for the children. So what advice then thinking about the tough decisions that you’ve made, knowing what you’ve had to go through? If you were to go back to someone, someone young, for example, that was about to take on new leadership? What advice would you give them?

Laura Pearce 20:39

I think you should listen to those around you. I think you need to hear what people have to say when you’re making decisions. But I think ultimately, you need to be really aware about what the goal is that you want, and confidence in your own ability. I think that if you have that, and you will then kind of get respect for the decisions that you make. Albeit, they might not be the most popular but I think for even now, when I’m making decisions that, you know, sometimes people won’t like, I think they’re accepted. Because, you know, there are other decisions that people do like, or they think, Okay, well, I can see why I might not like it, but I can see why. So I think I would just say about having confidence, really, and really honing that drive and passion into something great. Because I think that’s what we did. And I genuinely feel so privileged to be in the position that I’m in. And I think we’re making such a difference to children’s lives. And I feel, you know, that that is fantastic. I’m really, really proud to be the leader that I am. And I really wouldn’t want to do any other job.

Kathleen Cushnie 21:50

Yeah. Now, I agree. I think you’re a great leader, Laura. And I have watched the change in your leadership. And it’s been nice to see – to unfold.

Laura Pearce 22:01

Yeah, I definitely think I have changed. I think I probably appeared like I knew it all. Or, you know, I thought I knew it all at the beginning. And I think I’ve probably softened a little bit. But ironically, probably I’m more confident in knowing what I know now than I was then. Yeah, I definitely think I have evolved. And I think you should evolve as a leader, I think you should ever stay the same. And I think who you’re working with makes you evolve and be a different leader as well. You know, some people need more direction, some people need that kind of chatting through the decisions, you know, you have to be a different leader to different people.

Kathleen Cushnie 22:43

I like that that’s abs…Do you know that I think that’s one of the best takeaways, you have to be a different leader for different people. So being able to adapt to the situations around. (Definitely!) Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant. And so thinking about you then and as a person. So you’ve recently just come back from maternity leave, would you say like, you know, having a baby now has changed your approach to leadership at all or…?

Laura Pearce 23:10

I don’t think so. I mean, other than I’m probably a little bit more tired. I think I still have that drive and passion, I really missed it when I was on maternity leave. I mean, I love my baby, but I really did miss it. I get something from doing this job and being a leader, but I just think it’s just so precious. And I, I feel like the role is something that I’ve really aspired to do. And and I you know, I like to think that I’m good at it. And I think it makes a difference. And and I think being, you know, being a parent, perhaps makes you if anything, value your role more if you’re working with children, because I think you really see, you know, how you can have a direct impact on that. I always felt we were anyway. But I think when you have a child, maybe you do sense that a little bit more.

Kathleen Cushnie 24:07

Okay, brilliant, great answer. So as a mum and a head teacher two very intense roles, how do you maintain you?

Laura Pearce 24:17

So as we know, Kathleen, I’m very big on well being. And I really, really promote this within the school and have done for a fair few years. I think it’s really vital that people look after themselves that you know, you know, that you’re you know your worth and that you really value yourself. You can’t do your job well, unless you are well. So, for me, I guess it’s having that work life balance. It’s keeping on top of things, it’s prioritising. It’s knowing that I probably will never get to the bottom of my to do list, but that things keep changing to be on the top of it and that is fine. And I think the acceptance, and this is kind of my mantra: is the acceptance that it will get done, things just do happen. And that, you know, you don’t have to spend the time and energy worrying, because that’s actually just taking you away from doing it. So it’s better to kind of get those things done. And it will you will achieve really.

Kathleen Cushnie 25:22

High five to that! It’s definitely the acceptance of knowing that you’re never going to get everything done. And it’s okay, I think we’ll get there.

Laura Pearce 25:29

I think that’s teaching in general, I don’t think so, since I’ve started I’ve ever got to the bottom of a to-do-list. Because if you’re, if you’re a perfectionist, and you’re striving for, you know, kind of the best, then the job is endless. So…

Kathleen Cushnie 25:43

…and what is the best? It’s changing every day! Absolutely, depending on who’s looking and through what lens? So, now let’s thinking about the next stage, then, over the years, what resources or support have you drawn on to help you?

Laura Pearce 26:01

So I think, you know, the kind of wider community in terms of we work within a trust, and I’ve got, you know, friends who are head teachers within that trust, and I think sometimes you can lean on those people, if they’re going through the same experiences. And sometimes you just want somebody to say, Oh, yeah, that happened to me. And I dealt with it like this, you know, and often, it’s not necessarily the procedures that you don’t know, but it’s the whole feelings around situations and kind of managing that. So I’ve drawn very much on that. And as I said, When I started, I had a mentor, who now kind of, you know, heads up the trust, and the benefit of their experience and knowledge really impacted me. And that was fantastic. So she, you know, she was a fantastic leader, and that really benefited me. And so I think as well, just having everybody around you creating your team around you that you can really rely on and trust are so important. You know, if you’re having an off day, you need to be able to say to somebody, I have an off day today, you know, I’m tired. Right? But and that’s fine. Like and you know, you kind of support each other really.

Kathleen Cushnie 27:23

Because leaders are human right? I don’t know why we think that, you know…

Laura Pearce 27:29

…definitely. And I think there is a fine line between professionalism. And oversharing, I was very much on the… when I started the super professional, I didn’t share anything with anybody. As time has gone on, certainly the senior leadership team, you know, you, you do share more. And on a wider scale of things, you know, you share a little bit more in terms of your family background, for example. You don’t need to, it’s entirely up to you. But I think I’ve softened probably over the years. I found that difficult. I didn’t want to do that because I didn’t want to muddy the waters when I was making difficult decisions. And I didn’t want people to necessarily think I was their friend, and then would make a decision they didn’t like so I found it better to have half that distance and step back a bit. But I’m happy now with the balance that I have, I think.

Kathleen Cushnie 28:29

Brilliant. Yeah, just making sure that there’s no blurred lines. Yeah, definitely. So you’ve got to keep the professional line there. Okay, so we’ve come to the end. So I’m going to ask you three deep dive statements and a random question. So you just answer as honestly as you can, but quick. So what I love about my role is…

Laura Pearce 28:49

What I love about my role is that I get to come every day to something that I passionately love. And it is different every single day.

Kathleen Cushnie 29:00

If I could change one thing in education, it would be….

Laura Pearce 29:03

…that everything keeps changing.

Kathleen Cushnie 29:05

Whoo, I like that. If I could change one thing in education, it would be that everything keeps changing. Interesting! What do you mean by that? I have to ask.

Laura Pearce 29:17

I just feel that sometimes you’re just paddling to catch up, particularly in the latter years, you know, new curriculum changes, new standards and testing and, you know, just new Ofsted framework every year. There’s something new to wrap your head around, and it’s very difficult to embed when the goalposts keep changing. Yeah, I agree. I’m not saying these changes aren’t for the better, but they are changes nonetheless.

Kathleen Cushnie 29:45

So yeah, yeah. And last one then leadership is…

Laura Pearce 29:51

…having a vision and being able to inspire people to create that vision. Bringing them along with you.

Kathleen Cushnie 30:01

Brilliant: journey. Everyone’s on the bus. And the question…So this is a random question. You have woken up late and can only dress yourself with three words. Which ones do you grab for a successful day?

Laura Pearce 30:15

Positivity, passion, and humour.

Kathleen Cushnie 30:22

Brilliant definitely agree with the humour. All of them actually. But you know we both like to have a laugh. Yeah, not on school time…because it’s not quite professional. Brilliant Laura. Thanks for coming on. It’s been great talking to you.

Laura Pearce 30:44

Thank you so much for having me. I’ve loved it.

Kathleen Cushnie 30:47

Thanks. Take care. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you were inspired and gained some insights, which can help you as you progress on your journey.

Do share your key takeaways on social media and let people know what resonated with you. Remember to tag me, I’d love to see your thoughts and subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already. Thank you for being here. Until our next episode, be safe, be well, but most importantly, keep growing. Remember, there is power in your voice and it all starts with a conversation.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Christalla Jamil 0:00

#WomenEd it is a global grassroots movement that connects aspiring existing women leaders in education. It’s for women: run by women. And though we have he for shes men, of course support us and our co feminist. It’s just for women. It’s for black women. It’s not for black men. It’s for for example, you know, Muslim women, not Muslim men. I can go on and on and on with a comparative, but my message is #WomenEd it is for women to support, to grow and empower women.

Kathleen Cushnie 0:45

Welcome to Voicing Education – The Podcast. I’m Kathleen Cushnie, founder of Voicing Education, a Senior Leading Education, Trainer and Coach. My mission is to help new leaders and teachers aspiring to leadership become confident in their ability to lead others successfully. Whether you’re a new or aspiring leader, this podcast will help you to become confident in your ability to lead others successfully. We discussed key themes in education and personal development, and how this can impact education and leadership. Let’s move that needle from confusion and overwhelm to clarity and inspiration. I’m so excited to share my first episode of view, please subscribe and renew as it would mean so much to me. I’m starting with a conversation with an empowering leader, who’s also a dear friend. I’m very supportive. This is the first in a series of women leaders. Each conversation gives you a different perspective of leadership from a woman’s point of view, confirming that there are many journeys to leadership. No two journeys are the same. Christalla Jamil is an experienced executive head teacher with a demonstrated history of working in the education management industry. She is skilled in inspections coaching crime, education, early childhood education, educational consulting, leadership and school improvement. In her spare time, Christina is a national leader for #WomenEd England, and lives by the motto. “Be fearless in the pursuit of what sets your soul on fire.” Christalla holds the torch and leads the way for others, encouraging them to be #10% braver, I know this as I speak from experience. Hello Christalla and welcome to the very first episode of Voicing Education. And obviously you had to be my first interviewee, because you were there at the beginning of my journey, and I thought it was so important that you were here at the next stage of my journey. So welcome. And I’m so excited to kind of talk to you and unpick your leadership style. And just so other people can see how great you are. So the first question is, tell us why are you so fabulous and so great at what you do? And I’m not saying that lightly. Christalla works hard, professionally, but also her professional life seems to seep into her personal life because she is just passionate about what she does. So tell us.

Christalla Jamil 3:04

First of all, I want to say I’m delighted to be invited, let alone be your first guest. So thank you for this opportunity. Well, as you know, I’ve been in education for almost 18 years now, I commence quite late in life. So I joined teaching at 36. And I’m currently the Executive Head or in Tottenham. And I commence this role in April 2020. Just as we all faced our first experience of lockdown. That’s kind of who I am and where I’ve come from.

Kathleen Cushnie 3:39

Fantastic! And what you’ve missed out as a big part of what you do is that I know that you have a big role or your national leader for #WomenEd England. Can you tell us how being involved in #WomenEd England has impacted you as a person?

Christalla Jamil 3:55

Oh, gosh, yes. So I joined #WomenEd in 2016. So I went to one of the I think it was their second unconference. I’d been existing for about a year then. And I was just drawn to the power of community camaraderie support for women at the time, I’ve managed to take my own school out of some challenging measures. And we’ve got to good and beyond. And I think joining women at that time was perfect for me because that’s when I started to define my style of leadership. And what attracted me to #WomenEd, is the fact that we join that it’s a non judgmental group of women, but genuinely there to support each other so that so that we grow there, there are four main campaign so they have we’ve added to them over the years that the main one in the beginning was reducing the gender pay gap. And that’s something I’m extremely passionate about. More recently, we’ve become advocates for flexible working practices, we’ve always spoken and supported and want our voices heard impact on change with regards to representation of women in leadership roles. And that includes the increased diversity of women in leadership roles. So it’s just, it’s a role that it’s a community of women, that drew me because of their impact not only on myself, but on others. And since joining back in 2015, within my first year, I was invited to become a regional leader for London. So that meant, you know, holding my first event at my school, I believe it was the first event for North London, I know you attended, you know, lots and lots has happened since then. And #WomenEd has just grown significantly, both nationwide and across the globe. So we are now I believe, now, this might not be completely accurate, because our data changes on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. But I believe we’re in approximately 19 countries now there are 34 networks globally. And hence, due to our growth, the strategic group have now formed WomenEd England, which gives me a role where I’m accountable to support three regions. So it’s women at London, east and southeast and, and I do that with a group of other women in #WomenEd England. And so that’s, that’s kind of what drew me to start the work there.

Kathleen Cushnie 6:49

And how has so you do a lot in terms of supporting other women and I know you do a lot of coaching, as well as part of your role. How would you say that it’s impacted you as a leader?

Christalla Jamil 7:02

Or, you know, back from when you you trained in my class, goodness me, I forget the year you trained, but it, it feels like yesterday, often, and I’ve still got lots of memorabilia to remember 2006 Actually, I didn’t actually look upon you as a trainee, because I did so much amazing learning by having you as a co partner in my class. And I believe coaching is that same model. So regardless of rank, role, where you stand, whether you’re a teacher, a leader, a business manager, ahead, I feel we grow from each other. But where I’ve shifted my skills is really understanding the difference between mentoring and coaching. And not that coaching isn’t relationship focus, but I feel that challenge strategy, and really defining a purpose so that you embrace your successes, your accomplishments, but you’re also unafraid to face your challenges. And though they don’t always turn out the way you’d like them to having strategy helps you develop that having strategy helps you grow in confidence, and when through questioning the challenges that I pose on others that that have been posed on me throughout my career, I believe to strengthens the the ability for women, to lead in an authentic way not to be afraid to be kind to be authentic, to have feelings to be sensitive, and yet had simultaneously have the ability to hold people to up to account to be courageous to be determined to have faith in in their decisions in the processes and procedures that they deploy. Because people I deal with tend to be of the similar vision to myself. So you know, their values lead leaders, that ethical, you know, they have integrity, which allows them to choose courage. So I’m always the optimist. And I think that reaching out to others pays back tenfold. And it always comes back. Kathleen always comes back.

Kathleen Cushnie 9:21

Yeah, I would say that I’ve noticed that it does. It always comes back. I mean, that’s how you know the universe works really, you know, you give and you receive and it always comes back to you. When you were talking about the challenges that you’ve faced. I was just interested in knowing really what is the toughest challenge that you’ve experienced that has enabled personal growth for you Christalla.

Christalla Jamil 9:44

I think sometimes going through challenges you don’t, you’re not always aware. And there are there are two ways out of it. Either. You keep your head down and you get on with things and and you endure and I suppose like Darwin, you know, you find a way to survive because sometimes it’s you know, survival of the fittest. through experience, I’ve learned that you have to also be very mindful of the impact that other people’s behaviours other people’s actions have on you. So, instead of being hurt and closing my door and doing my own thing, I think I’ve learned that you use every experience, literally as that as a learning experience. So you’re then in control to make choices. So if I look at main challenges, I think it was having a paid career so late in life, and one of the main challenges was having faith in myself and developing my own style of leadership. I think another challenge was being awarded quite a damaging judgement from Ofsted, in my third week of my first headship, meant that I took onboard other people’s ideas when I say other people, the people moderating us as a school. And I think when I look back and see how I grew, the real growth, and the real ability to face challenges when I it was when I became more courageous. So the biggest learning point for me is not to be afraid. It’s is to have, you know, your group of critical friends and an I seek personal challenge. I’m self aware, you know, I know what I’m good at. But I also know what I need to develop. You know, I’m not by far I’m not perfect. I don’t know everything. I have a skill, though. So I employ people that are things I don’t know, they know. And we complement each other well. And I think the other thing that has been pivotal to my to my personal growth, is understanding that, through errors through mistakes, we continue to grow. And I’ve learned not to repeat those. And I’ve learned to coach people to warn prewarn people through what has happened to me, perhaps, to avoid them, partly, but more so to strategise for them. So that if something did happen, you know, we’ve, we have our safety net, we’ve got our bulletproof vest, we’ve got a load of strategies that will help us climb out of that pit. So I think the challenges I faced, at the time may have been challenges, but I see now that they’ve been pivotal in my understanding of how errors or negative experiences can actually shape not only myself as a leader, but can shape the impact I have on others.

Kathleen Cushnie 12:52

Yeah, absolutely. It makes you stronger in history is like what you’re saying about having the strategies, there’s almost like that toolkit to armour up yourself, because the unknown is the place where you grow, right. So if as long as you have the strategies in order to be able to tackle any unknown obstacles or challenges that may come your way, I think, really, that’s where the truth growth happens. And to be, to be clear, quite frank, in order to grow, you have to face the challenges. And I think in terms of supporting one another, and like you said, giving and sharing the things that you’ve been through, it pulls everyone else up the ladder, really. And I think that that’s what you’re about. And that’s what WomenEd England is about what women ed is about. Totally. And I think really, as women, and particularly, we need to see more of that happening all of the time, there is no competition, we’re all on a journey. There’s no. And also, another thing that I think is quite clear. And I just want to highlight that there’s no finish line, there is no finish line. So we’re all just moving through.

Christalla Jamil 13:55

It’s something that when we formed women aired, I mean, it’s about a year ago, and then we had these, you know, huge ideas for the launch and then lockdown happen. So I mean, you have a part of our new voices. And I think I’m really passionate about empowering other voices. It’s not about hearing the same old, same old experience voices, which is great and has its place. But it’s also about there’s this quite a corny phrase giving a voice to the voiceless, not always the voiceless, but perhaps the unheard. And it’s, it’s about growing together. And I think as as we formed women at England, we wanted to have our own thing, something that we didn’t do before in our regions, and it’s linked to empowering people perhaps that haven’t presented or spoken to audiences before. And it’s also linked to safe spaces because you know, things happen in life and unfortunately, more things have come to my attention in our in the group of women that I work with. So additionally, it’s about giving them strategies. To cope with scenarios that perhaps make them unsafe. And I mean that in a physical sense and in an emotional sense, and in a professional sense. So by by having this new outlook, this is what women, Ed England wants to do, I think it’s given us a whole new fresh challenge, fresh scenario of challenges to meet. And not only that we met yesterday, and it’s about finding out what our communities want. So, you know, hang in teaching, we always say that one size doesn’t fit all. So you don’t use the same scheme in your five schools, or it’s according to need. So it’s about relationship building, it’s about listening effectively, because you don’t have all the answers because you need to know what the situations are that need support, you need to know the areas that need growth. And then it’s about being solution focused through teamwork, through supportive groups. But I also want to say, it’s the women only this, you know, creating these safe spaces and being heard, it’s not because we don’t like men. And there are many men that you know, are co feminists with us. And they’re, you know, lots of great people that are here for she’s, but this particular journey of women and England is actually it’s for women only because we are tired of not being heard, we are tired of being underestimated in our impact. And, and it saddens me that often the people that come to me for coaching are because they’ve experienced inequality at such a level, not just gender inequality, you know, it comes from women, too. But often the people I’m exposed to have come to me because they’re suffering from being mistreated, being treated unfairly. So I think that’s what we you know, and actually, it’s so lovely that we’re meeting you today, because you are a part of that journey. When we initially set up women, Ed, and I’m just in the stage of writing a blog, and reviewing how you’ve grown over that year, since that first experience, and just having this show, Kathleen, you know, there’s lots to show how you’ve grown and, you know, really defined your purpose and in you’ve gone out there fearless, and achieved great things. And what I love, about the way we’ve worked together, just as friends, as professional colleagues, and I mean, friends and and beyond, is that you’re now doing that with other people, you know, so beaming with pride may sound a little cliche, but that’s the whole point of women aid. You know, we impact on a small group, that small group impacts on another small group. And you know, before we know it, we’re across 34 different countries globally. So yeah, I just hope that ripple effect. I know not going to hope I know, it will continue, though I’m optimistic. And I say hope, you know, how can it not except women remain loyal? How can it not?

Kathleen Cushnie 18:09

Yeah, it’s… that is so powerful, because we just all get inspiration from one another. And people are doing great things. And I think one of the important things about women, Ed, is that, like you say, so many people doing great things, but they keep it to themselves, because they think no one’s going to kind of want to listen to me, no one’s gonna hear I understand my viewpoint on my perspective, what for me personally, I think one of the things that #WomenEd’s has helped me with, is yes, I was a new voice and getting my voice out there. But as soon as you speak up, you realise that other people are feeling exactly the same way as you, you know, the imposter syndrome. You know, the challenges that you face, everyone, if you can’t kind of keep yourself quite singular and not connected, you don’t realise that or other people feeling the same things or similar, not the same, but perhaps perhaps similar situations. So I think it’s so important that we talk, we express our emotions, we express our feelings. And the key thing that you said really about is this being authentic being an authentic leader because that you can only win by being yourself I think, personally, anyway.

Christalla Jamil 19:16

Women trying, you know, to rise up in leadership face so many challenges that, you know, they could be cultural challenges, they could be symptoms, systematic hurdles, and often that, you know, you were talking about the imposter syndrome. It’s, it’s hard that you know, we, we have our own unconscious biases. And I think, through my experience, overcoming a lot of those hurdles was exactly what you said about forming those close connections with other women who can share experiences from other women who have been there who’ve done that, who feel the same as you. And, and that’s how we ask and that’s how we bring about our unique talents and realise that and knowledge our self worth and not Did you know our achievements and acknowledge our impact and start to strategise the, you know, the rest of our journey, and we review and reflect, and we’re not afraid to say, I’ve got it wrong. I got it wrong. And I’m going to do this next time. So absolutely spot on exactly what you said.

Kathleen Cushnie 20:19

Yeah. And you know, I was just thinking as you were just talking, like when you think about imposter syndrome, surely, is life in a syndrome really imposter syndrome? Surely, maybe it should be reworded, as I don’t know what to call it, but something that is there as a reminder that, okay, this is the point where if you push through this, you will grow, you know, it’s maybe it’s just a shell that we need to push through. So this is a reminder, you haven’t been here before, it’s okay, just keep going. But what happens many times with imposter syndrome is that it, depending on your mindset, it can force you back into your shell back into yourself. And if we don’t push through, then you know, the joy and beauty and opportunities on the other side will remain entertained. So I don’t know it may be…

Christalla Jamil 21:02

…this is the connection is this is the beauty of talking to others seeing things through a variety of perspectives, not being put off by negative experiences, all experiences in power are certainly all experiences teach us perhaps some of them teach us how not to behave. But still, we gain experience by using them in becoming better, better leaders, better people with the ability to see life through multiple lenses, then I agree, it isn’t a syndrome, it’s got a label, everything has a label, whether we agree with that label or not. It’s the behaviours of that label that we try and eradicate together. Because by by doing that, we you, you gain confidence by doing that you gain power. And it’s okay to say, you know, I’m hard working. I, you know, it’s it’s all right to admit all those things. You know, I’m, I’m a real woman, I’m strong, I’m protected by my courage. I know how to cry, but I know how to party and I know how to laugh. It’s okay, to be able to do that. And it doesn’t mean that I shy away from challenge, it doesn’t mean that I should shy away from accountability or holding people to account. It just means I’m good at what I do.

Kathleen Cushnie 22:23

Yeah, yeah, you don’t have to be one way. One way is not the only way. You know, we’re multifaceted. So for all of this Christalla because I know you are extremely busy woman, and I’m so grateful to have your time today. So how do you maintain you? How do you maintain, you know, how do you look after yourself? self care and all of that?

Christalla Jamil 22:43

That’s an interesting question. And, you know, I’d like to say I’ve got a gazillion hobbies, and I like to read. And as I’ve grown mature in life, I like a bit of me time. So though, obviously, you know, I have I’m married with two children and two grandchildren, I relish time on my own at home or in the garden or wherever. And not that I’m a son lover. But I think having me time and thinking space is great. And you know, I do a few things I like to walk I like to get out I like I go horse riding I like to cook. All that aside. I think for me, is the work I do with my church. It’s the work I do with #WomenEd, even you know, the Chartered College and the network of women that that have grown to be you know, my fellow sisters, that keeps me sane. I volunteer at a women’s refuge that keeps me on track. I think I have a need to feel needed. Which may sound bizarre, but when I needed I feel accomplished. When I support others, I feel I grow. So there’s a big part of my life that is private to me. And you know, my husband will often say, but it’s Saturday, are you going out again, or I feel that Yeah, I want to, you know, I’ve got to go to the refuge today. I’m, I’m at church, I’m supporting that group. We’ve got another women as event I’m on the phone coaching, but that busy is good busy for me. And if I didn’t have that, good, busy. I’m a better person because of that much better person because of that. And I also think that in life, you know, you know, my husband’s from the Middle East and we’ve experienced so many atrocities, which includes, you know, fatalities in in large numbers. I feel I’m grateful for, for what I’m truly grateful and truly blessed to have the opportunity. You know, to gain a qualification to become a teacher at 36 is phenomenal. You know, and I try to empower the community, especially my my mums, And the children I teach that, you know, people can take away family members literally rewards, they can take away your materialistic things. They can take away you know, your home your money. Again, it’s all linked through wars, but nobody can take away what you’ve got up here in your brain. So training and having qualifications of some sort, whether they’re, you know, practical qualifications, technical qualifications, academic qualifications in their life. They’re there for life, and nobody can take that away from you. And that’s why I’m so passionate about where I work, perhaps choosing more deprived more challenging borrowers and showing that the challenges are only there. If we see life through challenging glasses, lenses, actually, it’s probably the most delightful, definitely not probably, the most delightful community that I’m serving at the moment is my N17 postcode community, Tottenham has not only welcomed me in the most serene, unusual, annex unexpected, global pandemic time, it’s also given me a huge amount of worth, and giving that back through giving the children the best we possibly can through their education. And the adults I serve is is halfway to achieving kind of my life goals. Like you say, we constantly review and reflect and, and our journey continues to take another route. Yeah, so yeah, that’s how I look after myself.

Kathleen Cushnie 26:43

Yeah, I love that. It’s just…the only words, I can think of the kind of backup, what you’ve just said is that you clearly have a strong sense of purpose. And you’re extremely compassionate, like the things that you’ve mentioned, it’s all about helping others, understanding others through their lens, through their viewpoints. And that strong sense of purpose, you know when you said, I need to be needed. I think it’s that you, you just want to give, you just want to give and that’s your purpose in life through through whatever avenue you you take that, really, and I think…well, you know, I’ve been on the receiving end of that. And you do you just give, give, give, support, support support. And I just think is, is so nice. It’s such a nice way to be.

Christalla Jamil 27:30

I’ve been on the receiving end of that, too. And that’s why and that’s that ripple effects. That’s, that’s what I was talking about earlier. Because when you do receive you experience and then you give so it’s all kinds of Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, a great game. Pass the parcel with that fear is that it own the fear find the cave is it is it Brene that said, that so that you choose courage over comfort… sometimes.

Kathleen Cushnie 27:58

Absolutely. Yeah. So good, is also what you were talking about, as well, I can, you know, think it’s Viktor Frankl, his book, Man’s Search for Meaning, you know, where you’re, you’re really thinking about them despite what’s going on. You’ve got you and how you can respond to those situations.

Christalla Jamil 28:22

I’ve just ordered that on Amazon because I’ve met somebody through Twitter through women as I mean, you know, I’m obsessed with Twitter for CPD for you know, reaching out to more women, to more colleagues to more professionals, and somebody who recently found me found my school is gonna run some chess lessons at school also recommended that book to me recently. So I literally love my audit. And so yeah, I will be feeding back in another one of these sessions. My dear, I’ve read that Yeah,

Kathleen Cushnie 28:57

Great! And you’re very welcome back anytime. Christalla talking about resources and things that you dip into what’s the best resource that has helped you throughout your many years?

Christalla Jamil 29:07

I don’t know if there’s one to be honest. I think I’m I like to read and I like to steal. So I think that by networking by opening up to you know, when when I’m looking at school improvement, I go to the EEF. I look at research, that’s why I joined the charter college because Alison Peacock is a beautiful person. So I knew Allison from my days back at Oakthorpe, actually, and when you work with like minded people, do you know everyday is a good day. So using research to guide my practice to guide my behaviours because then I Christallaify them, because it doesn’t always work in its entirety. So I I’m led by others experiences that, you know, were backed up with evidence and then I make it fit myself for all my communities and then I think the whole thing about networking about bringing challenge to yourself so that you can bring conflict to scenario so that you can question procedures and processes in place. And I don’t just mean for sport improvement, I’m talking about personal growth, growth of others, I think really is my response to that.

Kathleen Cushnie 30:29

Brilliant that is a great, great, great, great answer. But we’re coming to the end. And this is where we do our free deep dive statements. And then I just throw in a random question. There we go. Just also honestly, the first thing that pops into your mind, so Okay, I’ll try. What I love about my role is…

Christalla Jamil 30:51

….oh, gosh, building relationships, building relationships and making a difference.

Kathleen Cushnie 30:56

If I could change one thing in education, it would be…

Christalla Jamil 30:59

…the ability for everyone to listen to each other effectively, to hear it from front liners. And to know that leaders know, the best solution to any challenges their schools, their communities face. Yeah, cuz they live in it. Right? Gosh, yeah. Yeah. And it’s not the same solution for every setting. Yeah, you got to be in it to understand it. And my voice is important, because, because it’s my voice, because I’m patient. I’m empathetic, I know how to love. I’m resilient. And I’m optimistic.

Kathleen Cushnie 31:40

Agreed. And then the question, your random question is you have the ability to alter opinions in society. Who do you tackle first, the pupils, or the parent?

Christalla Jamil 31:51

That’s an interesting one, going with pupils, because through the pupils, the parents come on board. And then again, I’d say kind of do it simultaneously, because you’ve got to be a clear communicator. So I would say, if I had to pick one, I’m going with pupils. But I think through osmosis, it’s actually both that are impacted anyway. By going through the pupils. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah. So true. Actually, he can, it’s all about perspective isn’t. But we often say I just because we often say that, you know, parents are hard to engage. And then that’s where our, our powers lie with changing that narrative through the children, because every parent loves their child. And every parent doesn’t listen to their child, hence my response.

Kathleen Cushnie 32:39

Brilliant, very, very reflective. And deep there actually has a great response. And so as we come to the end, and you did mention Twitter, how can people connect with you online?

Christalla Jamil 32:51

Oh, I’m easy to find. My handle is @ChristallaJ. So you know, I’m on Twitter, I don’t do Facebook or Instagram I that’s the only form of social media I do professionally, I do take part in. So follow me, send me a message. And it’ll be great to connect to grow women Ed even further. And let’s work together this family that we belong to is a great family. Fantastic. And I’ll also drop the handle for #WomenEd in the show notes as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 33:21

Christalla, this has been fantastic! Thank you for again for your time, because like I say you do so much. And time is precious time is invaluable. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you were inspired and gain some insights, which can help you as you progress on your journey to share your key takeaways on social media and let people know what resonated with you. Remember to tag me, I’d love to see your thoughts and subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already. Thank you for being here. Until our next episode, be safe, be well, but most importantly, keep growing.
Remember, there is power in your voice and it all starts with a conversation.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Joan has proved that determination and resilience pays off. It’s important to have conversations to let people know what you would like to do. You should also demonstrate this through your actions too.

Joan Cushnie

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In this special episode to mark the end of a challenging year – teaching through a pandemic – I am in conversation with a School Direct student and an NQT.

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Maimun

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In this second conversation as part of the Women Leaders series, I sit down with the headteacher at my current school – Laura Pearce.

Laura has been a headteacher for five years but received the title of headteacher at age of 28. Being young and dynamic, enabled Laura to make some tough decisions which resulted in success, proving that age simply is nothing but a number.

Laura Pearce

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Why empathy matters for us all

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Confusion v clarity?

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What we need is understanding

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