Kathleen, Author at Voicing Education

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Kris 0:00
Admitting as a leader, yeah, I messed up because that apology is the grease that keeps the gears going. That’s what keeps people going, and failure is. It’s just part of that lesson and I shared with my students. I’ve sat in the throne of failure but it’s put me in front of you, and be be comfortable with mistakes and failing because it’s all for growth. We have to you…can’t be all perfect right, what’s that?

Kathleen Cushnie 0:37
Welcome to Voicing Education The Podcast, I’m Kathleen Cushnie Founder of Voicing Education, a Senior Leader in Education, Trainer and Coach. My mission is to help new leaders and teachers aspiring to leadership, become confident in their ability to lead others successfully. Whether you’re a new or aspiring leader, this podcast will help you to become confident in your ability to lead others successfully. We discuss key themes in education and personal development and how this can impact, educational leadership. Let’s move that needle from confusion and overwhelm to clarity and inspiration. Kris Diasio is a Special Education Coach, supporting students with ADHD dyslexia, anxiety and depression, to overcome learning difficulties, and lead successful lives. Her educational coaching services also extends to parents, carers and teachers,. With over 30 plus years of experience, Kris’ personal coaching style support students to learn, life AND academic skills to realise their limitless potential. Many of what she refers to as ‘graduates’ have progressed to have successful careers, as scientists, therapists, and military personnel, to name a few. Kris, as you will see is passionate about inspiring and supporting others are fairly enjoyed engaging, well I thoroughly enjoy engaging with Kris, and you will see just how infectious and positive her personality is.

Before I start I just want to thank Financial Joy Academy, who are sponsoring this episode. Financial Joy Academy, also known as FJA to its family members, and I say family members as FJA community really are just that. Financial Joy Academy is run by husband and wife team Ken and Mary Okorafor. They offer a private space for action taking Dream Makers, who want to achieve financial independence. Financial Joy Academy have a range of courses, regardless of where you are on your journey to financial freedom, together with fellow Dream Makers, Ken and Mary support and encourage you on your own journey, which is what they’ve been doing for me for just over a year now free coaching calls, and their popular 5am Club. For more information, head over to their website, to take a look at the recommendations from other Dream Makers. If you’re convinced and want to join our family of Dream Makers, I have an exclusive link, which gives you 15% off your first month, check the link in the show notes. Financial Joy Academy provides an essential learning for all we know as educators that learning never stops. Hi and welcome Kris Diasio, it’s so nice to have you here. I’m grateful because I’m talking to you while you’re all the way over in Oregon, USA, and obviously you’re not all the way because you’re right in front of me right now and we’re connecting and having conversation, and I’m just so excited to finally see you and talk to you and really dig deep into find out a bit more about your work and what you do, because we connected I think it’s about six months ago now, just, just on social media. I mean, social media is a powerful thing everybody I think we’ve got to make our connections, and keep the conversations going because there are some fantastic people out there doing really great things. And I just think it’s really important to keep the conversations going… the connections, because you just learned so much. So Chris, thank you and you know I do want to share what your work and all the great things that you’re doing with everybody and guests because I think you’re fantastic your energy like I’ve always said to you, your energy just…I don’t know, it just comes right through your posts, your videos just who you are is authentic, and I think you display that well. You really, really do show that because you can tell that you are who you are, and people gravitate towards you. So thank you for gracing me here today.

Kris 4:40
Thank you Kathleen and so much. It’s such an honour to be on your show, and I am so happy to be here. And it’s so nice to get to know you… seeing you right. And I love the power of LinkedIn and social media, it’s just absolutely wonderful. And to make these connections and so I’m just really grateful, really grateful to be here.

Kathleen Cushnie 5:03
I’m grateful to and excited. And so Kris is a Special Educational Coach. She works with students, she works with teachers and she also works with parents, so she’s working at every level in education. And before I kind of go into the you know, giving you the sound bites, it’d be really nice to hear from you. Tell us why is your work value.

Kris 5:25
Oh my goodness. Well, there are a lot of students who have neurodiversity, I work specifically with ADHD, ADD, and dyslexic students, and you know they deserve a chance. And these are future brilliant leaders, and they just need some guidance, and encouragement and hope that they can do well, and so that gives me the lovely task of being very creative, on what I give to them, and how I make a task that is maybe looming and like a book report, how do we make break that down. Put that into chunks, and make it better so you can manage through it and be successful because we want them to be successful at the end of day. And just getting to know the whole child, you know, understanding where they’ve come from what they’ve what they value, What has been difficult for them understanding your road and a path. So, I really enjoy working and I enjoy working with the family sometimes, while the student can be for me, easy, sometimes it’s the parents that are struggling the most. No, and it’s just because they just have either gotten misinformation or they’re just, you just don’t know. We don’t have enough information about what’s going on with your students. So that’s where I come in, and also helping in supporting teachers. Sometimes the teachers, you know, they’re so busy doing many other things that the stop and, oh, special education, how do I manage this and I know a lot of teachers get training on that, but they don’t have the kind of, I have a master’s in special education and we bathed in…and that’s like being in medical school. So my vision and my goggles, if you will, on how I approach a student is very different than what I call a regular, a regular education teacher. So that’s where I’m encouraging everyone on the team. And also sometimes it can be the translator for the student, the student doesn’t have the words, or they have difficulty or maybe they’re, you know, more aggressive. And so I able to break that down, when the teacher can hear, the parents can hear, and there’s more harmony, so that the student can thrive and do well.

Kathleen Cushnie 7:37
Yes that is so brilliant because I read that, you know, on, I think it’s your website that you are the translator between the students, the parents and the teachers. And I think that is crucial because so many times, issues can escalate, just simply because of the way that it’s been communicated, or misheard or interpreted or actually. Because sometimes the message that the student or the pupils trying to say, just gets miscued viewed, just by perhaps maybe how the parent or the teacher is feeling that way, or perhaps the things that they’ve heard in previous conversations. So I think that’s really really important role and I think that that is valuable. That is so valuable and crucial. And so thanks for sharing that, in the sense of supporting teachers, could you just break down like how you do, how you lead that and what that looks like on a daily basis.

Kris 8:34
Well, you know, working with the team so when I first got a student, you know, first I talked to the parent, the parent has a lot to share, then I work with the student, and then I, you know, share with the teachers, so I get in touch with the teachers immediately, Hey, I mean I say educational coach. I don’t like labels so if I say an ADD coach, maybe that student, you know that, in other words, they might not have had the diagnosis, or if they have, they don’t want the English teacher to go oh I’m working with the ADD coach. So I always tell a parent introduce me as an educational coach, that way there’s no stigma. Um, because I really value that the student. Students have especially teenagers now, you’re dealing with shame and a lot of issues around their diagnosis. So try to keep that more confidential, and then just saying hi, I’m the team player. Let me know how they’re doing in the classroom, making that communication and that connection is super important and so that’s how I started off. And then as time goes by, talking with the teacher and talk with the parents, usually with parents, I have to overturn them like in the beginning I’m going to be talking to you a lot. And then I’m going to taper off and you’re going to have me work with those heavy assignments, you know, mom and dad need to step back a little bit, because it’s kind of like getting off of the drug of, you know, hyper vigilance, especially the student with diagnosis is the parent feels chronic and they are exhausted. So I’m like, this is your time to step back, let me take the heat. I know it, I’m trained in it. And I also don’t take this personally, right, because I’m not the parent, your parents love your child and you want so many things for them and to see the successes and failures. So I alleviate that and then I keep the parent in the loop all the time, isn’t it, it’s just that they need to just relax and focus on them. If anything comes up and I always let the parent know hey we’re working on these things now, so I keep them in the loop but it has to be so hyper vigilant, making, relax, and you know someone else is Dr child has their child’s best interests at heart in education. That’s how I navigate through that.

Kathleen Cushnie 10:51
Yeah, that’s that’s so interested in keeping the best interests, you know, at heart. And you spoke about connection, and, you know, I clearly can see, like I said to you about your energy and just how you come across, and the connections that you make, And I was having a look on your LinkedIn, and I saw that there was a former student, and I just want to read it out because I think this says a lot about your work and how powerful it is. So I’m just going to read it out just for everyone to hear. And so it says, “Kris has helped me exponentially throughout the years. During the entire process she was patient kind and understanding. I can honestly say, I would not be where I am today without support that Kris has given to me. No matter what she made sure I had the tools to be successful, academically, professionally and emotionally. Even as the years pass, she will still check in with me from time to time and offer advice.” I mean, come on, that is one of the things i’ve ever heard! That’s why, you know people go into coaching or…Amazing!

Kris 11:59
When I read that, I cried. I was like wow, because you know…My theory is, imagine a wall, and I have a wheelbarrow, and I throw over, I always have tonnes of ideas and if this didn’t work. Let’s try this, and I throw over these seeds, and then I look back, and sometimes you see things take root, and sometimes you don’t. But it’s okay. And then I look back and then sometimes I see blooms and with him. I’ve seen amazing. He’s successful, he has his own business, and he has done so well in his own business that I have hired him to help me with mine, he does my social media, he makes sure that I am visible. I’m on Google because of him, he just made it all happen. He says you gotta be out there, you’re not out there and I said well you I am and he’d say I mean, there’s no no, and he’s brilliant! So it’s an honour to have… so thank you for reading that I love it. He’s a great guy!

Kathleen Cushnie 12:57
It’s just a good example of how you can… it was a good example of how you can give, and how that can be returned to prime example. You know, and, and the importance of deep connections, connections and building relationships, because it’s all about relationships, isn’t it really? In order to be successful, you’ve got to have great relationships with pupils, with parents with teachers, everybody, and talking about great relationships, actually let’s talk about leadership, and because you’ve been working in education now for over 30 years. So tell us a little bit about your journey.

Kris 13:35
Well, I how I came into my leadership, I first was in. I attended San Jose State University in California, and I was in the ROTC training programme. It’s funny, I was going to be an Army Officer and thank goodness God had a different plan for me. But in ROTC, I was learning how to be a leader, and really adverse conditions because you preparing for war. What do you do so, that was my first introduction. My second was I was Assistant Manager at 25, at an athletic store. And this was a very pivotal point I was already in retail for 10 years at that point I started very young, and I went ahead and started working with the teams. I was interested in was two Assistant Managers, one was on the floor selling, I was teaching them, training them, and then I’d be in the back with them, listening to their problems. And I realised I was in the wrong career. So I left that I gave my one month’s notice my boss was really happy I did that but she was like, it doesn’t surprise me, she says, our part timers, because they love you, and you should be doing, being involved with teams, and that’s what started it. Um, later of course I had my business at the time for 18 years that did really well. And then I decided to go a different direction, and that’s a big one, big leadership is when I became a Programme Manager, or at risk girls, so they were sex traffic girls, I added staff with of eighteen team. I had an executive team, and they were my right hand, and boy did I learn a lot about leadership, and it was good because I was ready for that. Now after the pandemic I lost that job so thought hey, I want to go back into education, but that it was really great being the Programme Manager because you know I knew how to document the girls I knew how to handle the staff, you wouldn’t think… to see people think that, oh you’re self employed, what would you know about running crew but I work with teachers, school psychologists, I work with parents, students, and so I’m already working with community. Also I’ve done a lot of community work as well so I know how to manage people, and really, you know, inspire them and my biggest thing is to come alongside the students support them with that. So that was my that was my start.

Kathleen Cushnie 16:07
Wow, it’s very varied and it just goes to show all of those skills that you’ve picked up along the way and how they you know you can bring them together and do what you do so well. What’s really interesting aswell is that you know you’ve kind of come around full circle, twice, so you know you’ve always ended back up into education but yeah that’s clearly where your soul is. So nice. So you spoke about challenges so what would you say has been your toughest challenge or your toughest lesson so far and why?

Kris 16:39
You know, really, I think it’s well there’s a couple things I wanted to talk I wanted to talk about conflict and mistakes. So, conflict by what I learned and in all my journey is being really good listener and listening. So when you’re new in your career in your 30s it’s very easy to listen for five minutes, and then while that person is talking, you’re thinking of a battalion of solutions, and you’re just, oh, and now stuck with me. So now I slow down, and I need to hear all of the story, because if I only get 50% and I’m starting to rattle off solutions, that’s not going to serve that person. So learning how to slow down. Really listen. I have things as far as being like teachers that are going to be mentors or they’re going into leadership position, and this is things I’ve learned is there’s two different categories there’s one camp of people come to you know there’s a problem or challenge, they come to the person and they don’t, you know, what do I do, and being a teacher, I’m like, okay, give them some solutions. I know there’s also the school of thought of, well, what do you have what do you think…that’s, I’ll get to that in a minute. But I was offering like two suggestions, and then asked so what do you think, what would you like to be offering inviting them in that they really come to you for the answers. I’m kind of like then give it to them. Then there’s the other school of thought, or the other situation where I would have a staff, who was reoccurring with the challenge or problem. And with that, that’s when I’d say, okay, you’ve mentioned this before. Give me three examples. I always like using the number three, I think it’s good short and sweet to the point being an ADHD coach I’m a natural editor, so let’s get down to brass tacks, get to it. And then listen to that and do a follow up in one week. Because I’ll tell you what that problem starts going wait I don’t want to see every week. So that kind of calms that down. So that’s how I’ve dealt with conflict. I’ve also I believe in monthly trainings. I did that, I’m taking time out to meet with people individually, because I’m sure you’ve been in that situation where you have a meeting and everybody’s like crickets, there’s a reason for that. I feel uncomfortable speaking up right. So that’s what, yeah I like to check in with people individually and understand dynamics, and of course being the leader, big picture. That’s where I camp out, being the visionary being flexible, always open to change, especially in the kind of work that I used to do, it’s changing all the time. Yeah, you know, um, and I think the other thing I would get into is mistakes. How do you handle mistakes, and I just say be comfortable with making them, you’re going to get, you’re going to do it wrong until you get it right and what do we do as teachers we want that perfection. We want that moment but we have a lesson plan and we’re going to do this and it’s going to happen this way. And we have to let go of the perfect, because I always say that my students are my teachers. I really learned from them, and we’re not robots. And yet we want to be the role model, and I’m sure for young teachers out there listening to this, they go, Well, we’re not supposed to do this but we’re supposed to do this. Which one is it? And that takes decades of learning, you’ll find your own rhythm, and that’s good. Find your own rhythm and you’ll learn from your mistakes but be comfortable with them and don’t go into like what I call the cone of shame of, you know, oh my gosh I’m so embarrassed. You’re gonna make them, but that’s where you learn. And that’s where you grow and you’re a better version of yourself when you make those mistakes so when I was just started with my job as being a programme manager, I gave set of instructions to my weekend staff on Friday. I came back on Monday, one of my executives stands and says, oh, this and this and this happened Kris, how did they do that? Why did they..? And I raised my hand like I was in school I said oh it was, it was me. It was me, I said not a good idea, and I explained myself and said My thinking was ABC, I said that I realised that didn’t work. So lesson learned. I said I won’t be doing that again. Admitting as a leader, yeah, I messed up because that apology is the grease that keeps the gears going. That’s what keeps people going. And failure is… It’s just part of that lesson and I shared with my students. I’ve sat in the throne of failure but it’s put me in front of you, and be comfortable with mistakes and failing because it’s all the growth. We have to, you can’t be all perfect, right, what’s that!? So, and be gentle with yourself when you make mistakes, you’re gonna make them. It’s okay, it’s just part of that journey, and not beating yourself up into oblivion or calling in a sick day because you’re so embarrassed and here’s the biggest thing, especially in front of students. Admit your mistake and move on, you can go have a meltdown quietly later, you know, in your home, but don’t show them that they own you. Because if they see one little opening that you’re nervous about XYZ, they’ll own your soul. You don’t want, you want to learn, or even admitting I’m struggling with this right now. It’s okay, because you know what, relatable to the student, right. So those are some of the things. And don’t again hide and shame, get feedback get better be research. So those are my pearls of wisdom.

Kathleen Cushnie 22:37
Many, many pearls of wisdom. Many, many pearls of wisdom. And so, how has, you know, because you’ve got such a range of experience that is so much to dive into that we don’t have enough time for. But how has being a leader impacted you personally? How has that become part of your character?

Kris 23:00
It’s been really a wonderful experience, even though there’s been highs and lows, I think it’s a multifaceted process, and I’ve had to deep dive into myself and take a look at my own things, my triggers, what what do I value? I think that’s really important, what I stand on what I believe and what I will tolerate a little bit of that I will not tolerate. For instance, my students, they my ADHD guys, I hate to put it on them but just what I’ve seen in experience, they are brilliant liars. And I tell them and they see all my parents and I said okay, and even the parents like they lie all the time. I just can’t put…And I’m like, Okay, here’s the thing we’re going to work on that we’re going to get better next time. And you’re not going to lie to me. And I had a student, early in my career, who did that, the mom lied to me. I was like, I can’t work with that. There’s a students that hey you know, don’t tell my mom I never read the book. Okay, work with that. So they have to be honest. So honesty is the value. Figuring that out yourself. I think really helps give you a better trajectory on how you’re going to navigate the day. Yeah,

Kathleen Cushnie 24:23
Yeah! That’s so…

Kris 24:25
Does that answer your question? I hope it was…

Kathleen Cushnie 24:27
Yes, it’s does answer the question. What what’s really interesting there is that your values become your boundaries as well as what you’re willing to accept, because you know you’re, you know, that that’s broken your value, so no, I’m not going to work with you and it’s having the power and the confidence to actually do that as a leader. (Yes.) Would you say that you’ve always had that confidence? Because I think that’s that’s quite brave really to make that stand. Like they say you’ve got to stand for something or you’ll fall for anything but you really did make that stand. Have you always been like that Kris?

Kris 25:02
No, I wasn’t when I was younger, it took a while, it took, I remember. Oh my goodness, so I work the first seven years of my career with a phrase they used to say, I worked in California was severely emotionally disturbed and they called it SED kids, and I worked in a private school. A lot of these kids were juvenile offenders, they all lived in group homes. So those are the ones I started my education with. And there was one altercation. I didn’t handle well because I wanted to be nice. And thank God I sat down with those two kids, and worked it out because I realised what I didn’t do. And I caught it, I did it the next day, not great for them, but that’s right admitting my mistake and said hey listen, I think, let’s revisit this. I did not handle that well. And that’s… so those moments, those failures are huge launching pads to get better. So, I did not start off I remember that day very well and I shudder, I would have never handled that now, but then I, you know, it’s not fair when you have years and years. But when you’re starting out, you’re going to, you know you want to be the nice guy, right, you want your students to like you. You learn over time, and some, and also there’s some teachers that are really strict not going to bond with the kid well that’s not good either. So a happy medium.

Kathleen Cushnie 26:30
Yeah. Does that transfer to when you’re leading a team of people would you say in terms of being nice?

Kris 26:36
Yes. Oh yeah, no, it’s it’s funny because I had so much experience that by the time it came to staff there were certain what I call well ways here’s the gossipers. The critics, the people you can never make happy. And I had, I bring them in and say, so I understand this, and of course my executive team was so good they were like on the floor, I was on the floor too sometimes, when there was a disruption in the house. I would be most intense girl, so that way my staff can do their job, so I always knew to do that to me, that was like instinct, it’s like that’s what I’d want to see in a leader is go handle the intense pit, and I did. So, But then my executive sentence you’ve seen so it’s asking about blah-blah-blah, or you’re in. So I understand what’s, there’s an issue, is there an issue going on with you and sometimes I play a little bit like in the old days they had a TV show in the States called Colombo kinda, you know, and then they blah- blah-blah and I say okay so you come to me. You don’t put it on the floor. You never say that in front of the kids. That’s not okay: it’s not professional. So that’s where I’d hone in. And if it had to be with a couple of people I’d recommend and then went through the, the, I’ve had to fire people, but I always fire with grace and dignity. How would I want to be fired, right. Do you want to be recommend? Dealing with their faults I already had documentation they had to sign that I had one on ones I had all the ducks in a row. And it’s I’m sorry I’m gonna have to let you go. You know I appreciate the work you’ve done here, but this is not a good fit. And I really wish you all the best. And they’d be devastated… but I did it, kindness, it’s hard to do unless there was a real horrible violation, which would have been hired anyway, you know, to check backgrounds and all that. So to do if you could deliver the heart message: to do it with kindness. It’s like we extend kindness to students and be flexible with students, each student learns differently, but also to when you have that tough employee, and I had them. Sometimes I’m like and you’re here because you’re the resume look good and they did certain things that were good and then there was this wonky side. I’m like, No, we can’t get out that way. If they were well poisoner my team, I really don’t get her team, I’m sitting there starting to complain and they’re starting to pull back, and this one gal that I’m talking about in particular, wasn’t attending trainings and I said okay, so it was the eighth month. You know what to expect you can arrange your schedule you get paid for this. I said when you don’t attend these meetings, I see it on the floor, because my other staff is trained and oh we’ve just learned this new dynamic, and we do role plays, we do it isn’t like here’s a hand that I was gave a hand out, talk and guest speakers, really made it part of how we teach right, kinaesthetic, hearing, listening and doing and all that. And she was an attending and I said I see it on the floor. The result is from the girls I hear from the girls, and on the floor in your other staff members are noticing. It’s important for me to be here, and just simple calm, but I’ll tell you, it sounds, it’s for someone in their 30s going to be elated and say, oh you make it sound so easy. Took a lifetime. It just does some people really are drawn to it and they’re just natural leaders, people who aren’t just, it’ll come. I think that’s one thing for people that are more amiable personality and just sweet and they don’t want to rock the boat. It’s okay to rock it, because you don’t want to suffocate yourself, keeping it quiet.

Kathleen Cushnie 30:29
Oh gosh, Kris, that is so true. Do you know, you can…It’s so easy to stifle yourself by not speaking up and there’s obviously there’s a whole point of why you know I started Voicing Education, because you just don’t want to have those difficult conversations. We have to have conflicts in order to grow. I think when we learn that the growth, then, you know, you can grow because you’ve got to push through those barriers, which generally are just down to communication, and everyone does like that no-one really enjoys a difficult conversation. So you might, you know skirt around the problem and everything, but facing it full on the fear does fades away at the end of the day, doesn’t it!?

Kris 31:16
And I think for teachers, it might be the dreaded parent. Oh my gosh, this one. Oh, I just did oh I know I’m gonna get the call or the email, oh my oh they’re gonna come to the classroom. It’s okay. You have your ducks in a row, remember the teacher is the one that, that is needing the child in education, have confidence in what you’re doing, and you have documentation. You know, it’s so funny when I document sessions with my students, and this is how I taught my staff to document where the state of Oregon looking at our documentation right it’s different when you’re self employed, but I always document as if I’m writing to a judge. I document everything. I mean, probably more than I know how to, I learned to edit and I learn to not go on and on I don’t write, you know, War and Peace, I don’t do that but I taught them, I taught my staff you have to document is if a judge is gonna read this. Because our kids were words important. So we had to really… there was a way to document and many of my staff, they were brilliant, at how they did that. So just remember you’re the one in charge, so they might apparently have anger, they might have fear, and, you know, I hate to say but hurting people hurt people. So a lot of their stuff. It’s not because of you. It’s because they haven’t had their own journey and it’s really hard when you’re that new teacher might be nice and want to be I want everyone to like me. that’s really that needs to go away. That won’t serve you, to also be expert, and you stand on that conviction, and you can do front a little bit better. Now this and this you show… once you show the parents usually especially the dads, they calm down. Oh, I oh I didn’t know it was that bad. And don’t worry, you’re probably gonna have your hand with your head going, I wrote you 42 emails about, you know, are we discussed it in our parent teacher conference. And they say, Oh I didn’t know. It’s all part of it.

Kathleen Cushnie 33:19
And I think that does come with experience because naturally teachers want to please everybody, but yes, it’s, it’s, it’s a losing game.

Kris 33:30
It’s a really, it’s the handcuffs your, your strength. So get out of those handcuffs. Yeah absolutely, put your best foot forward in as long as you have things in black and white, and deliver deliver, remember when someone is escalated, of course I’ve always dealt with escalating kids talk quietly, they’re losing it. And your like, Okay, I understand. I really do. From what I have here in front of me, etc, and you’ll find your own voice in your own mind, that’s just like a little…, but just keeping calm yourself hard to do. It’s not easy.

Kathleen Cushnie 34:13
It’s not easy. And it takes a lot of practice, and making a lot of mistakes in order to get there which you know, everyone’s on their journey and so absolutely it’s fine. So in all of this Kris how do you look after yourself? Because it’s quite intense the all the you know the experiences that you have on a daily basis, is quite intense. How do you look after yourself to keep yourself grounded and well?

Kris 34:38
Yes. Well I have a great family, and I have my friends. So, I had.. I went through quite a tragic time I lost my home to the fires in Oregon last September. In fact today is nine months, that that happened. And before that, I was diagnosed with diabetes. And so what I told my doctors let me manage it with diet and exercise, totally revamped. So I walk every day. I’m also a cancer survivor. So, I got the memo nine years ago. So when I was even working in that group home. I had a lovely long drive home, I had long drive there, I’d listen to musics and I dive into my spirituality. My strength comes from God. And that’s really… it just being in touch. My daughter’s grown, and she lives three hours north of me, but I’m staying in touch with her, just enjoying a walk and beauty, and just taking time for me and I can tell when I’m depleted, I’m like, oh, it’s time to and I build in and I teach my students how to do this. I build in what I call cushion time, like after I have my interview with you, I have a built in some cushion time just to do whatever kind of slow and low, you know. And then I have days where I’m ambitious and I get a lot done, and lighter dates. So building that get things done without being a slave to it, and then building in cushion time. I’ve always told students like they’re like, Oh man, I just you know they want to meet with me at 10 but I don’t have to go to class until one. I said, say you have an appointment. I really don’t. I said, you have an appointment with yourself. So how to build that in, how to take care put the oxygen mask on yourself, in your small child. I’m a big proponent of value. I love that. I just think that’s so it’s taken, gosh, I love that. Yeah, you have to take care of me. And I also shared that with my staff. And there was one staff we take a lot of extra shifts, and I had to talk with her I said, I love your work, I love what you do. I don’t want you to do this anymore. Let’s see if you have to take care of me. I need you to last. It’s a marathon, it’s not a it’s not a race. Yeah, I noticed that for, I noticed it for my staff, I like gosh I really want to take vacation as a ticket. Are you sure yes: go! You know, sometimes some of my, not all the time. My staff was very good about it but they’re like my kid I have to… go! Especially when we recovered if we were not then it would look different, but take care of business do you. And of course, as a teacher you can’t go oh I’m having a meltdown let me… it’s a little different because you’re, you know, it’s a little stricter. That type of thing, but take care of yourself, go to the gym, movies, just relax, have your body and your mind physically relaxed.

Kathleen Cushnie 37:42
I love that you… I love the idea of cushion time, really, you know, because I think…what just what you said so, you do something, a piece of work, and then you build in cushion time after it. So you don’t always feel like you’re on the go, you know that hamster wheel in your wheels. I think that’s very important for me, myself right gonna take that away because it’s so easy as leaders, teachers, to just keep on going. I mean, why do we do this!?

Kris 38:16
I know and that’s part of how we’re wired as teachers because we want to get the mission done and we have to get the lesson done and we’re gonna, we’re always accomplishers, and not necessarily when ever call myself type A personality but I learned to really dial it back. When you know my body now lets me know that my body will literally, literally go after two and a half, three hours okay it’s time, and it’s time and I get one warning, I’m like Okay, I’ll get to that in five minutes, second warning there’s no third. That’s how strict I’ve got. Whenever there was a change or training or something for my life. It’s kind of like moving this huge ship, kind of like, excuse the reference Titanic but a huge boat when you’re changing something, it takes time. So it’s not going to be all of a sudden like carrots and celery and peanut butter and that’s all good. No, it’s well, maybe only have three crackers or 10 potato chips, not 25.

Kathleen Cushnie 38:22
Yeah. You’re so right. Again it’s just like the marathon. Same thing. Same strategy, applied to a different area of your life. It’s so true! And so you know you’ve come up with so many gems today and over the years, what’s the best resource that has helped you along your journey would you say? Like a book or, you know what, what’s…

Kris 39:41
There are so many books it’s not even fair. Oh my goodness, you know a lot of the books that I read are spiritual books that keep me grounded. Um, so there’s that. I’ve learned a tremendous amount with my ADHD and dyslexic books. I love that. There’s a great book called ADHD 2.0 And anyone can use that. I think just the accumulation of everything I’ve learned as an educator, going through what I’ve gone through my personal life. I think that’s where it’s brought me, but really it’s been my spiritual books that have kept me tethered . Sorry, I wish I had more books to recommend.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Priya 0:01
March hit. We all know this was pandemic, this was closed, you know, everything had closed. All the schools had closed. My work had closed, and what was I going to do next? So I was, I was really quite worried. I won’t deny that. I wasn’t sure what I was going to offer and give. I had a lot more time behind the desk, I connected with people where I could, whether it was through LinkedIn, but I got to know about a lot of people’s journey and what they were doing on their roles, but there was still a conflict within me about what do I want to offer?

Kathleen Cushnie 0:33
Welcome to Voicing Education – The Podcast, I’m Kathleen Cushnie Founder of Voicing Education, a Senior Leader in Education, Trainer and Coach. My mission is to help new leaders and teachers aspiring to leadership, become confident in their ability to lead others successfully. Whether you’re a new or aspiring leader, this podcast will help you to become confident in your ability to lead others successfully. We discuss key themes in education and personal development and how this impacts educational leadership. Let’s move that needle from confusion and overwhelm to clarity and inspiration.

In today’s episode, I’m in conversation with Priya, a former secondary school teacher, and middle leader turned freelance education consultant, and entrepreneur, prayer is no stranger to taking risks.

With over 13 years experience in education, Priya has used her expertise to train teachers, and has also delivered professional development for overseas teaching.

Alongside Priya’s, freelance consultant role of a teacher trainer and advisory role for career changers into education, Priya has worked in parallel for a charity in India, uses the knowledge to teach and create educational resources, which led him to embark on completing a master’s in education, gender, and international development, which brings us here today.

Priya is a founder of PHK Education, a skills based education hub. Priya has recently launched the first arm of her business as a study skills coach supporting students to achieve their ambitious academic goals, focusing on goal setting, revision skills, memory, motivation, as well as supporting parents with practical advice and guidance.

Before I start I just want to thank Financial Joy Academy, who are sponsoring this episode. Financial Joy Academy, also known as FJA to its family members, and I’ll say family members as FJA community really are just that.

Financial Joy Academy is run by husband and wife team Ken and Mary Okorafor. They offer a private space for action taking Dream Makers, who want to achieve financial independence, Financial Joy Academy have a range of courses, regardless of where you are on your journey to financial freedom, together with fellow Dream Makers, Ken and Mary support and encourage you when your own journey, which is what they’ve been doing for me for just over a year now through coaching calls, and their popular 5am Club.

For more information, head over to their website, to take a look at the recommendations from other Dream Makers. If you’re convinced and want to join our family of Dream Makers, I have an exclusive link, which gives you 15% off your first month, check the link in the show notes. Financial Joy Academy provides an essential learning for all. We know as educators that learning never stops.

Hi, Priya. It’s so good to have you today and I’m so excited because there is so much that I want to talk to you about and unpick because your journey is so wide and varied I mean…anyway, I won’t start now because we’re going to find out all about it. So before we start, can you just tell us what is it that you’re doing right now tell us where you are now in your journey.

Priya 3:55
No, I thank you so much. First of all, Kathleen for this opportunity to speak to you. It’s absolutely fabulous. And so a little bit about me, I am now a business woman that I have launched my own business called PHK Education. It is a skills based education hub, and I have just literally launched my first arm of the business which is a study skills coaching programme that support students as well as parents as well. And so that’s me at this very point.

Kathleen Cushnie 4:28
Fantastic! Right so that’s where you are now, so let’s rewind about, I think it’s about 10 to 13 years since you’ve been in education isn’t it so can you tell us, like so how. First of all, how did you get into education and then we can take it from there?

Priya 4:42
Sure, absolutely. So I started, I’ve probably been a secondary educator for about 15 years or so. I trained as a secondary school geography teacher. I was in and out of a few jobs before that, and then I started working and I found this fantastic school and I was there as a long term supply, and then it really just progressed, I kid you not, and I just couldn’t find the type of school I was looking for and space an opportunity for growth and this school had it all for me. And when I started at the school I was, as I said a long term supply, and then went into, there was an opportunity for leading KeyStage Three geography. And then, but about year after that became a middle leader that was my first position, as head of geography, and I was headed over five years. And then, was appointed a role there was a role created for me, it was a head of humanities role where I see the history and geography. And then after that I was a Specialist Leader in Education, and that was the very final point and that’s where I finished my kind of, I guess my career within teaching in a school and worked beyond the classroom now, and I finished in 2019 So that’s a little kind of whistlestop tour about of my journey through education.

Kathleen Cushnie 6:09
So, tell us about those opportunities and Priya so you said that you had many opportunities when you started in your supply school. So, how did they come about? Because it is unusual, so it’d be interesting to hear about each step of that journey.

Priya 6:24
Sure, I think, first of all when I started in this school. I, as I said I did struggle to find an opportunity to find a geography teacher role at one point as well and I was in and out different schools, I was speaking to some recruitment agencies at the time as well and they did find this particular role for me in this school that I thrived on I worked and progressed as well. And so, that’s the, that’s the way I got in into working into this particular school. And I just knew that when I went to this particular school went to the interview and loved the team. I loved the fact that I knew that there was an opportunity for me for growth as well. And they had me as their best interest and I loved that because they listened to me and where I wanted to go as well and so that for me made me feel part of the community and part of the school and I knew that I can use my skills and and grow (and grow) over time as well. So that was the, the, the opportunity for me then that’s how I started out.

Kathleen Cushnie 7:30
Just out of interest. How did you know that they valued you so that you and you felt how were you made to feel part of the community at that school?

Priya 7:39
I think there was, it was just, it sounds a bit silly, it sounds like a bit out there but it was a vibe that I got from them as well. I went to numerous different interviews before that, that there was something that the head of Geography at the time when he spoke to me. He wanted to know a little bit about my journey, what I wanted to do, where my pathway was my professional development. So he took an interest in me within that as well. He did even ask me you know, why haven’t you secured a role before that. So I wish I could be a little bit vulnerable and be open and honest in that interview as well, but I must admit that role I had initially was actually a long term geography supply role so it was, I think I got that role, probably after February half term. So there was this one whole term, I could also, I guess, see if that worked for me and and work for them as well, but there was something about the vibe of that school I just really enjoyed. And also, speaking and supporting many, many students as well so I knew that this was a really great place and of course, loads of colleagues that are now also my friends that I guess it all just kind of pieced together, and that was that for me.

Kathleen Cushnie 8:56
So, what, what is the… so you spoke about conversations and the opportunities and, you know, you said said about being heard. So what would you say, because you knew that you were comfortable and you were made to feel part of the community at this school. What is the one conversation that you instigated that you feel has made a big difference in your journey?

Priya 9:19
Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think for me, it was to do with my professional development. At that point I was still in an NQT, I wanted to know that they were able to support me in the school as well and they had a great NQT programme at the time that I could join, and then thereafter, what else I could support this, the wider community as well. And that was really interesting so I could ask some of those questions and be part of that community as well, and also with other staff. And so that was, that was really important for me, and I could see that and being able to be, you know, an ask those open and honest questions to.

Kathleen Cushnie 10:00
I sounds like there was at the school that you were, at at the time, that there was no distinction between supply staff and permanent staff. Is that a correct assumption?

Priya 10:10
No not at all. I didn’t ever feel that I would be labelled or known as supply staff at the time I was very much part of the department. I had great classes that I was teaching and they kind of just said, I guess they gave me the autonomy to, to lead those classes teach the classes, and, you know, there was curriculum plans and things in place as well, but I loved the fact that you still had ownership and can deliver those lessons to support the needs of those children in the class so I loved that, and it grew from there as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 10:45
Fantastic. And I know that you’ve so as well working in that school you’ve had like a, I could say a wide and varied career. So you’ve worked in primary and secondary schools, but you’ve also you know, gone over to India, can you tell us a little bit about India and like what took you there?

Priya 11:04
Yeah, I mean, this, this again was just an opportunity I had two friends of mine who also travelled to India previously, and they knew that my path was, you know I was interested in working in education and said you know what, you have the chance and opportunity go out there and I did before I started actually working in this particular school that I progressed and moved on as well. I, I basically decided that I think I’d like to go to India and try this opportunity of supporting underprivileged children teaching them English and so I was out in India, three months, and I thought that that was you know, three months stint and that’s all I would really do. But I loved it! I really did it was supporting them. Students too I was learning a lot of, lot from them too and I remember when I, when I first arrived, it was a real shock to the system because that the only thing I had was a small blackboard and and a chalk, and a piece of chalk and that was that. That was all the resources I could have there’s no reprographics, there’s none of this so during my training was completely out the window it’s, it was completely brand new for me. But it was also supporting teachers and communities and I think for me, whatever I had viewed or see maybe in the news or read and books and things I think to me it now came alive. And it’s not in my mind, and I just continue to work and support them so it started off as a stint of three months, and then I came back here, back to the UK, and I started this role at this particular school, and within obviously all my leadership roles and things as well, but I continued to work in support the school out in India as well so whether that was fundraising, whether it was sponsorship.

And all of this kind of went in parallel, into my work that I was doing as a UK educator, and I was in supporting the school remotely wherever I could. And what was really nice and this is why I’m talking about the time between the school as well that I could share this with my senior leadership team that they were well aware of the work that I was doing committing to that they encouraged me and they supported me, and I remember this one time that I wanted to go to India and I had gone back, I’ve been back like three or four different times myself to support the school where I could as well, but I had the opportunity to leave a couple of days before the end of term ended because of something that I would like to have been participating in as well and so they gave me that time off and I really valued that and this is what I was saying they valued me as the person that I was a staff member at the school part of that community. So that was my journey through India and it just progressed.

I just, there was no kind of plan of this, it just started out with a thought; this would be a great opportunity. And it just continued and I still work with them today. I know through COVID it’s very difficult, but wherever I can support them. It’s what we do within the charity and it’s progressing. Now that role has progressed into working for another charity, where I’m supporting them as through the Future Girls campaign this charity is based in Ethiopia. So all of this, all of these skills. I guess I’ve developed over time, but still use elsewhere as well, too. And yeah, so I’ve visited quite a few different schools across India over time as well and thoroughly enjoyed it and I think it’s just a bit of a, I could only describe as a magnet, to be honest. And I think that’s probably where I probably you know will continue to, to support the children and teachers as best as I can.

Kathleen Cushnie 14:50
And when you spoke about, you know, the journey that you’ve taken and supporting the schools you did mention about the plan like you know, nothing was planned. So, how would you just advice for others that are listening. What would you say about making plans in your career, like, you know, what would you say about that personally?

Priya 15:11
Do you know what, I must admit, even in my first middle leadership role as a head of department that was never part of the plan. Then at that point of my career I was very young. I think I might have been 25 when I was appointed that role, and then I started that role when I was 26 so I was, you know, I didn’t have the experience as such but the senior leadership team knew that I was already doing some of that role already, and planning was never part of it, it just never was part of the plan. India was never part of the plan. Starting my business by the way, there’s another thing, it was never part of the plan! But it what I must admit it was, it was…it was a bit of an instinct. I guess it was drive and ambition that I had towards it and some, I guess I’m sometimes some people might even say like colleagues of mine said oh you know, I feel like your next part of your career could be senior leadership, but I never wanted to to go towards that, and so that didn’t really, really kind of pull me towards those roles, but I just knew that I still wanted to I guess work with students. So, and work with teachers, but being and having a plan, sometimes it doesn’t always work the way, maybe you intended it to be or sometimes there might be some surprises there. But the biggest thing was the opportunities. And it was lovely that I was guided but I had a really, you know, supportive team that I worked with, and, and I can be vulnerable. So I think sometimes that was really important for me to be able to, to support me on that plan and see where that journey would go.

Kathleen Cushnie 16:55
Sounds like you’re a really supportive school especially like for you to say that you felt that you could be vulnerable because we know that sometimes in schools, it’s almost like seen as a weakness to be vulnerable and to kind of show who you really are or what growth pathways you want to take because like you said you were quite young, and I know that in some schools it’s kind not frowned upon, I think that’s the wrong word but almost as if you have to do the years before you get to the next rung of the ladder as such but you know you’ve proven that that is not necessarily true. And so, really, from talking to you and knowing your story, there are many risks that you’ve taken. So, can you tell us about some of the risks that you’ve taken in your career.

Priya 17:39
I mean, I think the biggest risk will have to be me resigning in 2019. I would probably say that I sometimes can have. I know that we’ve just discussed not having a plan or what that plan is like but I kind of knew that if the next kind of middle leader role or something came up I would go for that as well, but not having a plan at all after 2019, I think really shocked a lot of people I think the attitudes of other people, I think, you know, you could tell like I think when I left in 2019 and I handed in my resignation, I started to share that with friends and colleagues, one colleague said to me, you know, this doesn’t really sound like you at all, you know, have you won the lottery and not told us about this Priya. So that was really interesting and really funny and I said that on my leavers speech as well.

But I, you know, as I said to you, I had, I had my UK educator role, and then in parallel I’m working in India and supporting the schools, they’re all of this, merged together in 2016 when I embarked on doing my Masters and that was in Education, Gender and International Development, so even very different to what I’m doing in the UK schools. I loved my MA, I really did it was really hard, working full time and doing the MA part time as well, but you know what, when I said to you about the magnet was something was really drawing me more towards the international development work is still working in education. So I think for me, I must admit, when I visited in 2019 for my master’s dissertation, I had to do, I wanted to do a primary research and I knew I wanted to do this in India, but I had to go and, you know, find a school other than what I’ve been working with beforehand as well. And I got to this one school I visited probably about eight, six to eight schools. I think in a really short space of time and this particular school was kind of, it was from quite a remote school it’s out in the middle of nowhere, you had to get a night bus to this particular school and where this, where this location was. Immediately when I, when I met the students at this particular school, it was an outreach school and the communities, something just drew me straight away I was like, I would love to interview and support these communities, and be part of my primary research. And so that was that. And I must admit, I was really torn when I came back to the UK. Now I couldn’t place myself anymore I’m like, I’m just basically I couldn’t ignore the communities, the conversations, working with children that the teachers everything I had seen and envisioned. And these were tribal communities as well. So in terms of, I don’t know if you know but the social structure within Indian tribal communities are generally the lowest, and so they are forgotten communities. These communities have no form of formal education at any time, especially these children like I had connected with and parents too. So I was really torn so when I handed in my resignation. And again, because of the team that I that I had with the senior leadership team, especially my head teacher, he knew. I guess the progression. I don’t know, maybe I’m putting words into his mouth, but he probably might have gone. It’s just when she would have handed in her resignation because I was really torn between what I was kind of doing I was still doing my work here and loving this and still doing that. I couldn’t forget what was going on there, and I had to make this decision because also this is a conversation I was having with my family. And I didn’t speak to a lot of people I’ve kept this quite private with with some of my family members because I think that was important that I was making this big decision. They knew the best interest of where I was going as well and can understand my path. And so they, they just fully supported me in this and I said, I’m going to do this, and so handed it in, and I didn’t regret I don’t regret this decision at all. I know through the pandemic there’s been lots of ups and downs, and honestly I thought I might have to go back. It’s, it’s not a, I don’t feel like a, you know, a failure if I did or had to go back but I knew for me, that chapter includes the 2019 firmly closed for me.

And the thing I think for me is that I supported children and teachers through teacher training in lots of different capacities I supported within education. The question for me then was, how do I still do this? I still knew I wanted to work in education but how could I do this when I left in 2019? So the only part of my plan should I say was August 2019, that was just submitting the final part of my dissertation, and then it was a bit of a question mark, and but it was really weird for some of my friends and colleagues to know well what are you going to do next and I said I’m just going to kind of figure this out I had a few networks and connections and warm contacts that I could work and get some short term, work with. But other than that I think I was just ready to explore and learn. And I just, I took this opportunity because I could, and pleased with this journey and so now I’m going and still learning at this point.

Kathleen Cushnie 22:59
Fantastic! So, right, so you’re on this journey then so what is life like after resigning so how have you transitioned from school, into business life?

Priya 23:10
Yes. What a journey that has been and you know what it has. It’s not been, it’s not been linear at all. I, as I said, this was never part of the plan, being part of having my own business and calling myself you know a businesswoman now. But first of all, I had this opportunity from about October/November till about March to basically work in different schools and supporting teachers and international teachers and that was great. So I had loads of experience working in lots of different schools because to be honest been best part of my career I’ve been in one school. So, this was great. And then the other part was I never worked in primary schools, so I worked in primary schools as a supply teacher, loved it. And let me tell you the biggest thing for me I learned is, actually, it takes a lot more to take children from their seats to the carpet, because it was an absolute disaster. And I taught through from year one right the way up to year 6. So this was great, I loved it.

So now March hit. We all know this was pandemic, this was closed, you know, everything had closed. All the schools had closed. My work had closed. And, you know, what am I going to do next? So I was, I was really quite worried. I won’t deny that. I wasn’t sure what I was going to offer and give.

I had a lot more time behind the desk so I connect with people where occurred, whether it was through LinkedIn, but I got to know about lot of people’s journey in what they were doing on their roles, but there was still a conflict within me about what do I want to offer? And there was almost this is quite interesting new podcast being ‘voicing education’ but there’s a little voice in me going, I just want to give this a go with something like… I literally started with little education videos or something like that I can offer, but the problem was is like like who am I helping? Am I helping students, or am I helping teachers? I didn’t know what I was and I was getting so confused, and I was getting quite frustrated and then one thing I invested in, I always say that this was so fantastic for me was career coaching, and I was invested in career coaching, and it wasn’t like you know at the end of it I was just going to get this job or whatever it wasn’t clarity. I was having conversations with somebody. By the way she was placed in New York. She was not in working in education but she asked me some really great poignant questions that helped me to start thinking about maybe this entrepreneurial kind of side of me. She..she picked out something I didn’t realise I was doing through my dialogue. And she said, Why do you keep saying I should be I should be doing this? I feel like you’re creating a boundary for yourself. And I said I didn’t realise I was doing that. And then she’s even said another thing, she goes, Well if you want to help teachers you can, and you can also help parents if you want to do we can also help children and I just was like, okay, for me I was muddled. I was muddled because that was causing me frustration. But then something was just starting to layering maybe through the capacity when I was tutoring as well and I was also tutoring to that parents were still coming up to me and saying, my child need support and this other than obviously supporting them in geography, and then finding that there was still an area that I could support students as well as parents with and then I started to go with this kind of study skills programme that I wanted to offer how to learn more effectively. Revision skills and I know some of this is talked about in schools but sometimes curriculum time does take a lot of time within this as well.

And so, I just knew that there was a bit more of a niche that I can offer. And then I started to read a research more and I already done this beforehand within my capacity as an SLE. And so I just started to figure out this pathway a little bit more and then I started to do YouTube clips and then, you know, Instagram and all of this started to kind of, I don’t know what was going on but I just kept learning. YouTube, was an absolute saviour, because I was learning more from them and I think to me it just started to piece together, and it just evolved. And I, you know what the one thing is that I enjoy, was really enjoying this journey. It didn’t have to be like this massive bigness business strategy that maybe you might have had to have but I was just trying things out. So, so then I think to be honest, from about December to now, I’ve now got something that never existed.

This time last year and it’s my study skills coaching programme and. And then, now I’ve built up my social media profile and my presence. I never was like this beforehand and creating content that I can share. And I’ve launched a framework within this coaching programme, And this just, Okay I need to be doing this I need to working on this, and it was a bit all over the place I must admit, but it started to kind of piece together. And it was that piecing together I just started and see where it was going and I guess that was me. You know if you mirror that as a leader, you know, within, within education as a middle leader I was just evolving and going through that. The same thing within, within my business too, but you know what I’m thoroughly enjoying it, having business meetings, and offering what I can to parents and students to and enjoying those conversations too and I speak very passionately about that, to parents and students and I think that comes off. And that helps them to know that, you know, we’ll offer those eureka moments for those students as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 29:02
Yeah, and I just want to say as well that I find your videos very, very engaging because I’ve said this to you before that your videos are not like the standard ones that you see on Instagram so if anyone. After you’ve listened to this do go and check out her Instagram page, because it’s fantastic. Her videos are very quirky catchy and get straight to the point. So do go and have a look because I think your style is different, and it’s quirky, but you just get the message across quite clearly and concisely so I like that because throughout everything that you’re doing, I can see that you are generally just being you and I think that is the key really throughout your whole journey is that you are clearly just being yourself and I think that’s something to be commended because not everyone has the courage to do that really so I just want to celebrate that with you Priya. So…

Priya 29:55
Thank you so much I really appreciate that.

Kathleen Cushnie 29:57
That’s okay! So why would you say the work that you’re doing now is valuable?

Priya 30:03
Absolutely. I think the work that I do is, is valuable because I’m supporting students, and as well as parents too. And that was really valuable for me because I know that with students. It wasn’t just about the content anymore but it’s more about sustainable learning practising, lifelong learning that we, that we all are, we are lifelong learners.

And so I wanted to ensure that our students or students that I’m supporting in coaching, have the skills that they can build amend and and deliver and support and provide them with confidence that they can use within their study. So it could be anything from how to revise effectively, how to use their time effectively. It’s not about telling them what to do but it’s about coaching and supporting them and listening to them and guiding them whereas those pressure points, there’s pain points that they’re facing.

The other side of it and the reason my coaching programme also supports parents too is because I knew that there was a capacity, and I’m not telling parents how to be parents and that’s not what I’m trying kind of tweaking a little bit more about maybe giving some a guide or some support, where they can maybe tweak some of their practices to help their child, a little bit too, so I’m offering that support that can make maybe that dialogue between their child and themselves, I guess, better for that for any child’s you know academic journey as well and let’s just be honest I think the last couple of years, it’s so tricky for students as well and families to that, you know, some of them haven’t really sat formal examinations, but providing that support and guidance for them this is really valuable and that’s, you know, kind of purpose within education and then I’m feel very confident and proud of what I’ve produced that I can still create those positive education gains the learners but also support parents too as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 32:04
The two go hand in hand. Okay so you spoke about working with pupils and working with the parents. So how does that work do you work with pupils individually and then work with the parents separately or do you work with the families together?

Priya 32:18
Really good question so what I do is I support students on a one to one basis. And then there is this opportunity where I can support parents as well so depending upon what type of package that they’re interested in, so it could be like half an hour support that that’s included within their package that they would love to have and that just gives an opportunity for them to say, well, maybe I’ve had three sessions with a student and this is what I’ve, I’ve noticed and maybe this is how they could support them, or is there something that they’re feeling or quite anxious about as a parent that maybe I can support them to.

So, with the parent it’s definitely one to one as well, but also I offer that kind of flexibility within the coaching programme that it can be with the parent and student but it’s not for me to make it feel like a parents evening, it’s nothing like that is, it’s for them to feel…during that time, specifically as well, too. So it has that flexibility and I guess tailored support that that student, or that parent would love to have during that time as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 33:24
Sounds like some really powerful work and you spoke about your kind of purpose. So in a nutshell, could you just tell us what is your driving purpose for education Priya. With all of the range of experiences that you have, what is your drive?

Priya 33:39
I just knew that I wanted to offer something of value that I knew that, I guess, and I talked about this before those lightbulb eureka moments, that I think what spurs me on was teachers that have inspired me, and power of education, that probably from maybe family may have not had that opportunity but I’ve got this opportunity and, and what I can offer and give back to others as well and it just grew over time. And you know, watching students when, you know they opt to pick a subject at GCSE, let’s say, you know obviously geography, and then they opt to pick it at A Levels, because they really thoroughly enjoyed the course at GCSE. And then you know, they ought to pick it up as an undergraduate course and you know the cherry on the top is probably been when they become geography teachers, so you know you’re part of that journey. And I love that and I think it becomes a bit of a magnet doesn’t it really just want to keep offering support and guidance to them as well. And also, you know, I guess, whilst people want to be in a work in education things for some of those same reasons, you’ve got that passion and drive to help students as well as other teachers as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 35:04
Fantastic. And in all of that then, what would you say that leadership means to you?

Priya 35:09
You know, depends what what we had a very different image of leadership. Before I became a leader that’s for sure.

Kathleen Cushnie 35:19
Oh tell us about that then.

Priya 35:20
You know what, I think sometimes, sometimes we feel like they know all the answers, or, you know… it’s one of those kind of aspects I guess that, you know, you have to have heaps of experience to become a leader. So those are probably some of my presumptions before that too. So being a leader, I must admit, it’s one of those things is having a vision and a goal. Sometimes that has to be amended over time of course as well. I don’t know. I don’t know all the answers, so I know within my, within my team, that there is a skill set there and knowing that skill set for them too. Providing them a voice and an opportunity and a pathway for them to develop and move on as well, because that’s clearly really important as well. I’m, as I said, I mean not going to know all the answers, as well and I can seek support and guidance from others too. It’s okay to take a risk…

Kathleen Cushnie 36:16
Oh yeah!

Priya 36:17
…in leadership, I’ve done that numerous times. And you know what, sometimes some of those risks, especially with a middle leadership are going to be unpopular, they’re going to make, having to have some difficult conversations, that’s part and parcel of it too. But you know, I thoroughly enjoyed learning from others as well, and that’s really important on the middle leaders too so leadership is a whole amalgamation of different qualities, but you know what, it’s also part of enjoying that journey too and learning process. So that’s, that’s how I feel about leadership. Yeah!

Kathleen Cushnie 36:52
Fantastic. That’s a great, great answer. Lots of points to think about in that, in and I suppose. Another thing, just to build on that because, so that’s leadership in schools, but would you say now that you’ve started your own business, that the leadership has changed slightly? Or would you say the same sort of attitudes or skills that you have brought that into your business. So could you tell us a little bit about how you lead yourself. But how, what is leadership for you now as a businesswoman?

Priya 37:31
Well, do you know what, there’s no kind of I guess structure like there would be a school timetable; you don’t have to be there, sometimes you have to set your own timetable your own goals of what you want to do and everything else as well. So I start my morning very early, because I know that works well for me in terms of reading research in the morning and whatever other things I’ve got to do but I’ve, I have figured out that being your own boss, you don’t have a rigid timetable so there is that fluid but also you have to make sure that I guess you’re productive, but sometimes to be okay with yourself and say, it’s not quite so productive day and to be quite kind with yourself with as well. I’ve also noticed that this journey and this path, I know that previously I talked about leadership, that I guess within leadership, being a middle leader, you’ve got other colleagues, and you know you’ve got your team that you can support and be supported by too but entrepreneurship and being a businesswoman is quite lonely.

Not everyone is going to get it, that even includes close friends sometimes as well. And and that’s okay, like, you know, I’m just kind of figuring this out as well. And I think for me, using that time. It’s just how it works best for you and where the needs are. So sometimes, I’ve had to say. Right, I know that this time is going to be for creating social media content. This time is for this time, but because there’s no time as such you’re working all the time as well sometimes. So for me as a leader, there are still some of the same attributes I think sometimes it can be a bit of a lonely a kind of conversation or dialogue that you can have, but what I have started to know is that there are communities as well that, that I’m starting to join and evolve and be part of as well. So that’s lovely. Again, I’m not going to know all the answers, again, and YouTube is great so I’ve learned loads from YouTube to do fun things, You know web developing and all of this, it’s all completely brand new. And if anything, if anyone is, you know, listening and thinking that you know, I would love to try this, but I often say that, for me it didn’t work out in the first time round, not the second, probably not even the third and you know what, that’s okay, just keep practising and trying, and that’s what I kept doing if you want to see some of my very first YouTube clips of they’re not even. They’re absolutely dire. Yeah, I think, overall, I had a thing of seeing my face on screen, Really and getting over that. Yeah, it’s a journey, definitely.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Kathleen Cushnie 0:08
Welcome to Voicing Education- The Podcast. I’m Kathleen Cushnie, founder of Voicing Education, a Senior Leader in Education, trainer and coach. My mission is to help new leaders and teachers aspire to leadership become confident in their ability to lead others successfully. Whether you’re a new or aspiring leader, this podcast will help you to become confident in your ability to lead others successfully. We discuss key themes in education and personal development, and how this impact Educational Leadership let’s move that needle from confusion and overwhelm to clarity and inspiration.

Today I’m speaking with Florence Okwusogu. Florence founded Aligned Flow because of her belief that our ability to create a happier and healthier life is intrinsically linked to connecting and expressing our deeper self. As a result, she offers an integrative mix of bespoke coaching, mentoring, training and therapy to teachers and educators that goes beyond traditional wellbeing strategies. Her goal is to empower her clients to unlock potential to fulfil their why without sacrificing themselves or their ability to create a life that nourishes them at all levels. She has just launched The Eduwellbeing Club on Clubhouse a safe forum focusing on how educators can prioritise their well being. Check the show notes for more information.

Before I start, I just want to thank Financial Joy Academy who are sponsoring this episode. Financial Joy Academy, also known as FJA to its family members, and I say family members as FJA community really are just that Financial Joy Academy is run by husband and wife team Ken and Mary Okorafor. They offer a private space for action taking Dream makers who want to achieve financial independence. Financial Joy Academy have a range of courses regardless of where you are on your journey to financial freedom. Together with fellow Dream makers, Ken and Mary support and encourage you on your own journey, which is what they’ve been doing for me for just over a year now free coaching calls and their popular 5am Club. For more information, head over to their website to take a look at the recommendations from average dream makers. If you’re convinced and want to join our family of dream makers have an exclusive link which gives you 15% off your first month, check the link in the show notes. Financial Joy Academy provides an essential learning for all we know as educators that learning never stops.

Hello, and welcome to Florence Okwusogu who’s with us today. And we’re gonna be talking everything about teacher burnout, exactly what that is, how it unfold, and why it’s so important to for schools and the educational world to take this seriously. So welcome, Florence.

Florence 2:55
Hi, Kathleen, I’m really happy to be here and talk about a subject that I’m really passionate about teacher wellbeing, not just teacher burnout, but teacher well being in general.

Kathleen Cushnie 3:08
Okay. And so, before we go on, I think it’s really important that we talk about teacher burnout. So what would how would you define teacher burnout?

Florence 3:18
That’s a really good question. So burnout is the end result of our system being overwhelmed, and overloaded. So chronic stress, really, and when our system is no longer able to manage itself, then it starts to fail. And that can look like different things to different people. For some people will experience it predominantly as a physical symptoms and the physical manifestations of burnout. Some people it might be more mental stress, emotional, psychological. And for others, it will be a mix of the two. But basically, it’s the symptomology that we get when our system is overloaded due to excessive stress that we can no longer manage and regulate.

Kathleen Cushnie 4:11
Over the years would you say that you’ve seen or known people that have suffered from teacher burnout?

Florence 4:17
That’s another really good question. And I guess the answer to that would be…no. Yes and no. The reason being is that I believe it’s one of those subjects that teachers hold very, very close to them, because there is a fear an unwillingness to to share to be vulnerable in that area because of what it might mean for them. So I haven’t had teachers come up to me and necessarily say I’ve experienced burnout but, it’s expressed in different ways. It’s expressed through tiredness and Illness and disaffection and disillusionment. And in areas where I guess it’s safe for teachers to express themselves, for example, online, there are a lot more likely to come out and say then and use the word burnout. But if you’re in an environment where I guess, you know, you can specifically see a teacher, they’re less likely to use those words, and you’re more likely to see it expressed in other ways, and even other ways that they’re talking. But they, they’re less likely to use the words teacher burnout.

Kathleen Cushnie 5:37
It’s interesting what you said that they feel that they can’t say it because of what might happen, which is sad, really, which is why I think this needs to be taken quite seriously. So why would you say setting boundaries is important, and how do you set them for yourself.

Florence 5:52
Boundaries are important because it’s about recognising and valuing ourself as a standalone entity, and ourselves, and our own resources as well. It’s like, if you have a property, your property has boundaries, you take care of your property, if somebody was to come into your property and mistreat it, then it would stir up emotions and stress. And it will make you feel vulnerable and threatened and stressed because that’s your safe place. That’s, you know, that’s something that you look after, it’s where you can go to and and be yourself.

So when we’re talking about having boundaries, we’re really talking about having space that allows us to operate and feel safe, feel calm, feel able to function at our optimal level. When we don’t have boundaries, what happens is that people come into that space, and we’re not able to feel like we can protect our resources. And that’s really what it is about the ability to protect our resources, so that we can function at our best. And what I found is that often, and maybe it’s something you will touch upon, but if you go into a vocational space, boundary setting can be quite difficult to do because you kind of feel like actually, the reason why I’m here is to give and give, and give and keep giving. And then there’s there’s the added kind of people pleasing element that also gets thrown into the mix.

So setting boundaries is important, because we need to be at our optimal best, we can’t do that if we feel under threat under stress under pressure, because our our space has been encroached, or there’s a potential threat or harm in any way. And you know, our, our body, our physical body, and our and our psychological cells can be placed in a position of fret, in a position of risk when we feel unsafe. And so having boundaries is really important. Especially in teaching, if you think about the kind of things that we have to manage the kind of sometimes high risk behaviours, unpredictable behaviours, very heavy emotional subjects as well, and that students might bring to us yeah, it’s very important that we can manage our boundaries and manage our own resources.

Kathleen Cushnie 8:37
Yeah, absolutely. And what you were saying there about the analogy that you gave about someone encroaching your space, I think that sets it quite clear. And you’re able to really understand them, why it’s important to have the boundaries, because it’s so easy, like you said to…because we are generally most of us that are in education, and people pleasers because we just want to go above and beyond.

So we go, ‘oh that’s, okay, I’ll do that. That’s all right. It’s okay. No, no, it’s fine. I do, I’ll do that.’ Until it gets to the point where you’re just, I guess, everything is just come so close. And you just don’t know where to turn, what to do, what to do first, and so on. And it becomes a bit overwhelming. It’s not a bit overwhelming, it is overwhelming. So setting the boundaries, like you said, is so important. It’s a really, really good analogy, I think, because that’s made it quite clear in my mind, seeing it as your space is something because I mean, I don’t like people coming too close to me. So if I see like that, if I see as someone coming a bit too close with their demands, then I’m more likely to push those boundaries back. So thanks for sharing that. I think that’s a really good way of looking at it in terms of space. It makes it very, very clear and easy to understand.

Florence 9:47
Yeah, you’re welcome. Thank you.

Kathleen Cushnie 9:48
Just thinking about personal boundaries and teacher burnout and your journey. I know that you’ve been a teacher, and you’ve been working in education and now you’ve moved out into something different. Can you tell us a bit about your journey in education?

Florence 10:04
Yeah, definitely. So I went into teaching as I think a lot of teachers do to make a difference. I was one of those kids in school who was quite quiet, introverted, you know, quiet, quiet. And I found it, I found it quite a struggle, I had lots of stuff going on in at home. And so I found it, quite a struggle. And I really wanted to be there for the child version of me, you know, to really support that version of me, and to support them with their confidence and to support them with their well being and to, you know, be their cheerleader so that they could make that progress in life, regardless of what else was happening for them outside. And so no surprise, I went into teaching not just to teach my subject specialism was psychology. So not just to teach psychology, but also maybe more importantly, to be there; to be that teacher that students get to go to. And I was, you know, my door was always open, break time, lunchtime, after school, before school, walking down the corridor, you name it, you know. And I think after a couple of years, my first goal, I was given the responsibility of running the counselling service for students.

But I think probably around that time, I began to experience lots of strange physical symptoms. And at that time, I didn’t really understand what was going on, I went to the doctor and thought that, you know, it would be something that, you know, they’ll tell me, this is wrong, be super easy to deal with. But, you know, they didn’t know what was what was wrong with me. And I was still going at full speed, or at more or less full speed with this kind of symptoms with these symptoms, hanging on to me, so doing the best that I could do. And then after a while, it started to have an impact on my ability to do the job. So my ability to concentrate, my memory, I was tired all the time was making mistakes in my marking. And I realised that actually, I was just getting worse and worse that, you know, I was I was gaining weight, there was inflammation. And it was, I was a hot mess, really, to be honest. And I remember thinking to myself, I have to I have to leave, I have to leave for my health. I have to leave. But the thought, the other thought that kind of played on me was, what about the students? What about the school? You know, if I leave what will they do. But then I remember at that time, I was praying a lot. And I remember just thinking, actually, this is a question of either me being here to fight another day, or, you know, something happened to me, and I’m no longer here. And when it was put in those terms, I knew that I had to leave, you know that I couldn’t, I had to think about myself.

So I left. And to be honest, it was a very traumatic experience for me. I, I couldn’t go back to teaching for a really long time, until kind of money necessitated it. And then it was really kind of temping roles. And I was actually diagnosed with a rare auto immune condition. And it took me six years to get that diagnosis because the condition was so rare. And that was years of kind of go into different specialists being passed around becoming disillusioned with the National Health Service, turning to alternative medicine, and really beginning to look into my own psychology to understand, okay, yes, I have this illness, but what led me to this place and really begin to beginning to understand my role in developing that condition.

And as a result of learning about how, how I had in a sense created that situation. It led me into exploring counselling and therapy and coaching work and well being and positive psychology (really Applied Psychology) instead of just kind of teaching the theoretical side of it. So I started coaching! And I realised that actually my passion lies in helping other women, and especially teachers to really understand their own psychology, understand the things that drive them. So it’s not just about, okay, you’ve got burnout. Now, how do you recover from it, but really understanding how to be your best by understanding who you are, and creating the right environment for you to flourish and thrive. So you don’t have to reach that stage. And if you do reach that stage, how you can make changes to who you are being so that it’s not a repetitive cycle.

Kathleen Cushnie 15:43
So almost prevention is better than the cure, is where your work is focussed then. So can you tell us a bit more about the work that you’re doing today then what how do you…How do you help teachers?

Florence 15:55
So a lot of it is focused on mindset, and what I call becoming savvy to your psychology. I, even though I taught psychology, I wasn’t really aware of my own. And therefore I couldn’t see when I was walking into the danger zone, the disaster zone. I was just doing all the things because I was being driven by these triggers my past story that was fuelling everything I was doing in the present. So I was being led rather than doing the leading.

When we think about what we’re actually doing in education and any other job that we do, we are called to be leaders. And we should start by being leaders of our own selves, really, I mean, how do we how do we, how can we lead other people when we’re not aware of who we are. What drives us. Where our blind spots are. What our strengths are. How we can overcome certain situations, how we can thrive. So it’s really about learning, who we are. Learning how we respond, and how we react, why we react in the way that we do? How do we stop doing that? How do we find better ways of being so that when we are in that situation, we are in control, we’re not being triggered, we’re not reacting. We are choosing how to respond. We can create an environment that is nourishing for us that supports us. We can create an environment that allows us to be our best selves. So yeah, that’s the kind of work that I do with teachers the really kind of deep stuff. Yes, there’s the resilience building and the coping strategies, but I kind of see those as like plasters that you stick on and hope for the best, afterwards. You really need to get to the core of who you are and who you are being in order to make those sustainable changes. And to be the person that you need to be in order to do the job that you want to do.

Kathleen Cushnie 18:01
You’re so right! Just get to the core of who you are and who you are being because I think, I don’t know… if I’m thinking about myself, but I would say, like you say you go, many teachers go into teaching to help and you know, feel that they can save or make an impact and so on. But as always, I would say that teachers, what they’re trying to do is always prove themselves, which is why we get so entangled into this mess. We go above and beyond. And then if we don’t know who we are and why we’re doing it. And like you say it can lead to teacher burnout or other things. It can be a trigger for other illnesses. Just going back to what you were talking about with your illness. That wasn’t teacher burnout was it? Just to make it clear.

Florence 18:42
It it was it was just manifested as an autoimmune condition. Yeah, so yeah. So a lot of the time, especially when you’ve got unexplained symptoms, after a while, if you wait long enough, it will be given a diagnosis of some sort, whether it’s fibromyalgia, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, but all of that is a result of the chronic stress. And if that chronic stress is a result of the profession and the role, then that is teacher burnout.

Kathleen Cushnie 19:12
I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me. So talking about, you know, all of your career and where you are today. What would you say is the one conversation that you instigated that has had a huge impact in your career?

Florence 19:27
One conversation? I don’t think that there’s any one conversation to be honest with you. And if there was one conversation, it would be a conversation that I had with myself. Yeah. And probably actually, if I think about it is that conversation that I just said, that I spoke about earlier, when I realised that I had a decision to me because it was such an enormous shift for me. And it was a shift of immense courage and bravery, I think to really say, actually, yes, I know that there are all these people who potentially are relying on you or who you perceive to be relying on you. But actually, you are a person in your own right as well. And you deserve care. And you deserve to be healthy and happy and whole. And it’s okay for you to choose you. So if that was a conversation that shifted everything for me, it would be that conversation. Yeah.

Kathleen Cushnie 20:25
Interesting, interesting that is with yourself, because I think our voice, what we say to ourselves is very, very powerful. And I think it’s often underestimated how powerful the words that we used to ourselves have. So what does leadership mean to you overall would you say Florence?

Florence 20:43
That’s another good question. I’m currently doing a Master’s in Applied Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology. And I’ve been thinking about topics that I’m interested in. And one topic that has come to my mind is positive leadership. And when I think of positive leadership, one of the key words that come to me is authentic leadership. It’s when we think of leaders, it’s very easy to think of it as being a role, but it should be a way of being. It should be something that we are. Something that we personify, and therefore it should flow naturally out of us. We shouldn’t have to try it, yes, there’s going to be some effort, some change involved, especially if we’re stepping into a new, a new space, then we’re learning to be but it should be about that it should be about being and not about doing. Because when we’re doing we’re up in our heads, and we’re trying to, we’re trying, and we’re often trying too hard. So to me leadership is about recognising again, who you are, why you were doing it, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are, being somebody who other people feel safe with and want to follow. And because you know, I guess your strengths and your weaknesses, utilise in the people around you, to the best of your ability, and helping them grow as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 22:20
I like what you said about, you know, a leader helping others to feel safe, because I think, I think that’s one of the most important things really. If you feel safe around the person that’s leading you, you’re more willing to speak up, you’re more willing to share things, you’re more willing to take risks and to grow. And it’s and it’s often one of the things that isn’t openly spoken about, I think, you know, communication is spoken about being authentic, but allowing the people that you’re leading to feel safe, is crucial. I think it’s crucial for growth. So thanks for bringing that up as well. It’s a good point.

Florence 22:55
Absolutely. I think like one of the things I always felt, as a teacher, what’s the importance of students feeling safe in the in the classroom, because they can’t learn, they can’t grow if they don’t feel safe. We are leaders in the classroom. So if we take that out the classroom to any other space, why wouldn’t we use the same ethos with the people that, you know, we work with our colleagues, people who we are responsible for!?

Kathleen Cushnie 23:23
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it’s, it’s not rocket science, but it’s so simply forgotten. Because like he said, some people see, (I don’t know if you did say this, or is it why heard) but some people see, the leadership as a role, whereas it should come naturally. And if you are naturally going from a classroom, where you’re able to make people feel safe, then yeah, why not take it into your own leadership? It doesn’t… there is no difference! And to be honest, in any relationship, you should be making the people around you feel safe. That’s just a given, isn’t it? So it’s something to I think, really consider that point. I would say, as a leader, your role is to make people feel safe. It’s so important, I can’t stress, how much of that really resonates with me. So what stage of your journey so far have you had the greatest personal growth?

Florence 24:21
I think it’s a cumulative thing. Actually, it’s really hard for me to answer those questions. I thought at each, each stage there’s been something that I’ve had to tackle to cause me to grow. And we’re always growing. But what I do feel is really important is the ability to be courageous. I think that it’s so so important. There’s no growth without courage and stepping into the unknown, stepping into a place of fear. Really thinking about where our comfort zone ends and learning to feel into that space. That’s what I’ve always tried to do. And you know, the people that I work with, I really support them in that space because we can’t grow if, if we don’t allow ourselves to stretch, if we don’t allow ourselves to feel the fear, because it’s telling us something. That’s what I believe, you know, that the fear is speaking to us about our hidden thoughts and our beliefs, being able to face those things that we’d rather not face. That’s what helps us to grow and become the best version of ourselves – yeah.

Kathleen Cushnie 25:44
Absolutely. Great answer. So I know that you’ve spoken before about the educational system, and change agents. So what do you believe needs to happen in order for teacher well being to be taken seriously?

Florence 25:57
I know people have so many, so many different thoughts about this. And it’s such a hard one, you know, I’m not gonna say that I know the answer. But I think that it can be addressed at different levels, I definitely think that there is a space where the individual can begin to deal with it. As I as I said, if I had maybe understood myself a bit more, then I wouldn’t have experienced what I did in the same way, maybe not, to not experience it at all, but in the same way.

But then we’ve also discussed about how teachers often have underlying reasons why they go into teaching that drives them, and in a sense, reinforces all of those behaviours. And I actually feel that leadership often plays on those vulnerabilities that teachers have and it becomes a vicious cycle. So at the individual level, there are things that need to be addressed. So we’re not so reactive, and we can choose, but then leadership, it’s a game, sometimes I feel that is played to offset teachers against one another, to position yourself in a particular way. And I feel if leader if leaders were to actually be on the teachers side and address those issues, give them the support that they need, the emotional support, so that there’s not a culture of fear. They feel able to talk about things more openly, that they’re not constantly scrutinised, that they that they don’t feel that they can’t say no. That there’s actual real communication about boundaries, and what that can look like for it to work for both parties, so students, staff and leaders, because everybody’s in a tight position.

And then lastly, it has to be right from the top from government. I know speaking to you, you’ve spoken about how you know, government really needs to understand what what it’s like to be in schools. And if they’re not, if they’re not aware of those issues that teachers face that schools face, and there’s always going to be that pressure from the top which gets distilled down to teachers.

Another thing is parents and society, I think they play a huge role in maintaining the school culture, societal and parental expectations of teachers are… it’s immense! And I really felt I’ve been I’ve been on maternity leave, I go back into my role, the middle of this month, August, but I was very aware of how my fellow teachers were struggling him during the pandemic, and how much pressure they were facing, how much pressure parents placed on them, because their children were at home, and they wanted their children to be at school. And I understand that they had jobs to go to and things like that. But teachers were expected to, to really continue on as normal. In such a difficult situation, and my heart really did go out to them. I really hoped that the pandemic would give society a new perception of the amazing work that teachers and educational staff do, and really help afford them that greater amount of respect that they deserve for the work that they do. It’s not just about teaching subject knowledge, it’s, you know, all the other things that we take for granted. And I’m yet to see, I’m yet to see that. But yeah, so those areas, parents and society, teachers themselves leadership and government. And maybe even I would say the students, pupils as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 30:07
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a team effort, isn’t it? Yeah, hopefully one day, we will see some changes. I mean, it does. It does take the teachers, I would say first to start, perhaps voicing exactly how they’re feeling. But I think they need that safe space that you were referring to before. So the leaders and the teachers need to do something first. And then hopefully, that will filter through, but it takes it takes one person to make a stand really doesn’t. Yeah. Which is at the minute, it seems like it’s difficult.

Florence 30:40
Yes, it is difficult. I, I think sometimes what the problem is, is that teachers are so invested in the job, that it becomes their identity. And they can’t step back from it, and actually address the problem, because that there’s that fear of what happens if you know, this is taken away from me. So that’s really what I mean about being a change agent. Sometimes you need somebody who’s been able to step away from the system and see it more clearly, without that emotional entanglement to actually flag up those issues and say, you know, be the voice for those people who, who aren’t ready to use their own voice yet. Yeah.

Kathleen Cushnie 31:27
Yeah, that sounds like you. Yes. And speaking about you, why would you say that your work is valuable?

Florence 31:37
It’s hopeful! It’s hopeful. And I think we need hope. Teachers are leaving the profession because they lose hope. And that’s a sad thing. Because oftentimes, it’s the best teachers that are leaving the ones who came with so much enthusiasm, so much passion and strength and will to change, but they get worn down, and they get worn out and so they leave. And what we need is to let them know that there is hope, there is hope for them as individuals, because it changes who you are. That’s the thing when you, when you have undergone stress to the extent that it reaches burnout, or it reaches post traumatic stress, it changes you fundamentally, it shifts your worldview, it really knocks your beliefs. And that’s why people often leave because they become disillusioned. It’s not what they thought it was. So providing hope really helps them see that there’s a space for them still. And even if they choose to come out of education, they have that hope that they can make a change. It’s not them. It’s not them, the problem isn’t there. It’s something else. And maybe it wasn’t a right fit for them, but there is a fit for them elsewhere. So that self belief that self care, that self love that self worth, that will still drive them to take all that energy and make an impact somewhere else.

Kathleen Cushnie 33:13
Great. So as we’re coming to the end, I’ll just like if you could share what resources you’ve found valuable along your journey, so maybe a book or podcast.

Florence 33:25
Yeah. So really, it’s been personal development work. So a variety of courses. As I said, I went on a counselling course, I did a hypnotherapy diploma, I worked in a mental health trust. So I was actively learning and using CBT. But outside of that I did read a lot of books, I continue to read a lot of books, because it’s when I come across an area of myself that I’m like, oh, there’s a wound there, there’s something there that needs to be addressed. Then I go into that I purchase a book on that. So a big one was boundaries. For me, I spoke about boundaries. And I can’t remember the name of the book now, but it was a book on on boundaries. And that’s where I got that analogy from the property analogy. And it really, really helped me understand the role of boundaries and why we need to have boundaries not bad thing at all. Growing up, I was ‘No’ was like a swear word in my house. You know, we just didn’t say no, especially to the authority figure. And so I really had to re educate myself with that. So some people call it reparenting, you know, you have to kind of what are the skills what are the things that you need to, to learn, to develop, to grow and go out what each different so it’s all going to be different from us.

So that’s why I say becoming savvy about your psychology, knowing what you need to address your own unique areas, that you need to address and go out and find resources in that. If you need to see a counsellor go and see a counsellor, if you need to see a therapist go and see a therapist. I journal, I journal a lot. I’ve written a few, a few books, mainly for my own benefit, but I’ve self-published them in the in the hope that you know, they will help other people. So yeah, just constantly working on myself in different ways.

Kathleen Cushnie 35:26
Okay, brilliant. And how can our listeners find you online if they want to get in touch with you?

Florence 35:33
Okay, so I’m currently working on a website at the moment, the address is www.alignedflow.co.uk. But it’s a space where people can learn more about the work that I do, if they want to get in touch and find out more about if I can help them.

Kathleen Cushnie 35:53
Fantastic. And we’re going to end with three deep dive statements and a random question. So you okay, right there is that you just answer it. First thing that comes into your mind. So teacher wellbeing is important, because…

Florence 36:07
…teachers are people too!

Kathleen Cushnie 36:10
Brilliant! It is vital that new leaders…

Florence 36:12
…take time to discover what, what they’re good at.

Kathleen Cushnie 36:20
Hmm, good. And my mission is to…

Florence 36:25
…help make the world a happier and healthier place.

Kathleen Cushnie 36:28
Brilliant. Thank you. Okay. And then your question is, you are invited to an educational event, and are seated next to the Secretary of State for Education. What is the one thing that you’d bring up in conversation?

Florence 36:42
Oh, gosh, that is such a good question. One thing that I bring up in conversation, what is the purpose of exams?

Kathleen Cushnie 36:51
You know, what!? I would love to be there to hear the answer to that. How can we in today’s age justify the purpose of exams?

Florence 37:04
Yeah, I think I was playing out in my head. I was thinking, how do I how can I link this back to, you know, workload and you know, overwhelm and pressure and all the pressure that is in an education system. And it’s basically assessment, it’s that constant drive for assessment and measuring people against standards. And you know, what is the purpose and why?

Kathleen Cushnie 37:31
Yeah, yeah. Why? I hope someone asked him that question, I’m sure people have it just that we will never ever hear the answer to that, really. And so thank you. It’s been a really, really insightful conversation. There’s so many points that you’ve highlighted and some really good key takeaway things that I think people can really consider and think about and reflect on, really. So thank you, Florence, for joining me today. It was really nice talking with you.

Florence 38:00
Thank you, Kathleen. Thank you so much.

Kathleen Cushnie 38:04
Thank you so much for listening. I hope you were inspired and gained some insights, which can help you as you progress on your journey. Do share your key takeaways on social media, and let people know what resonated with you. Remember to tag me, I’d love to see your thoughts and subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already. Thank you for being here. Until our next episode, be safe, be well, but most importantly, keep growing. Remember, there is power in your voice. And it all starts with a conversation.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by Otter. Apologies in advance for any typos or errors.

Kathleen Cushnie 0:06
Welcome to Voicing Education the podcast, I’m Kathleen Cushnie founder of Voicing Education, a Senior Leader in Education, trainer and coach. My mission is to help new leaders and teachers aspiring to leadership, become confident in their ability to lead others successfully. Whether you’re a new or aspiring leader, this podcast will help you to become confident in your ability to lead others successfully. We discuss key themes in education and personal development and how this can impact educational leadership, let’s move that needle from confusion and overwhelm to clarity and inspiration.

Laverne Noel, is an Alternative Provision Manager commissioning education for children who, because of illness exclusion or often circumstances, cannot access mainstream school settings. She’s currently working in an inner London borough. Training initially as an artist manager, she transitioned her work towards supporting young people. She undertook a postgraduate diploma in youth and community work, as well as a level six careers advisor. She has supported young people as a project manager at the Prince’s Trust, and undertook a position as a connections personal advisor, moving into management within the service. Recently, she took an interim role as Virtual School head for looked after children. Her passion lies in helping and supporting transitions. As well as a current role, she volunteers as a Christians against poverty job club coach. Hi Laverne, It’s good to have you here with me today is so good actually to have someone that’s from a different aspects of education, because I think, you know, we know so much about you know schools general schools mainstream schools. So it’s really nice to have you here to kind of clarify an understanding for us between virtual schools alternative revision, so welcome. So before we kick off I think it’s really important that we know a little bit about Laverne and who you are and why your work is important.

Laverne 2:08
Wow, that’s a big question. So, um, so I’m Laverne as you’re introduced, and I currently work for Southwark local authority as an Alternative Provision Manager. I’ve worked in Southwark for a very very long time, over 10 years, and I’ve, I suppose I’ve done quite a few different roles, but mainly, my interest is working with young people, and looking at their personal development. So, I started off working in Southwark, in a secondary school specifically work with children that maybe were on the edge of exclusion might have had various kind of issues happening at home, but also I worked with children that were on the school council as well so quite a broad range, and I delivered some PSHE sessions as well. So that was kind of like my general work with young people and then I decided to specialise a little bit more, and ended up in Alternative Provision, a bit of a journey.

Kathleen Cushnie 3:12
Oh yeah it sounds like an interesting journey actually. So you’ve made… worked in mainstream, and now you’re working in alternative provision. So before we go deeper into this I think it’s really important that we clarify virtual school and alternative provision so can you tell us what’s the difference?

Laverne 3:28
So a virtual school is something that the government set up to make sure that every looked after child has an education advisor, and a virtual head. So when I was working in the virtual school I was a Deputy Head and then I acted as a Virtual Head. So the idea of a virtual school is to make sure that all that talk to children achieve on par with their peers. So, looked after child typically has a really challenging start, they would have suffered significant trauma, most of them will have had various placement moves so they might have changed foster carers, had to start new schools and leave schools. So you can imagine with that amount of complexity, the thread of education and making sure that they can still achieve is really challenging. So you need a specialist role to have oversight across all of those children wherever they’re placed because most looked after children aren’t placed in the bar, but they became looked after. So you could have children in the north of England, for example, so the virtual school will work with the school, they will make sure that the school is supposed to meet the educational needs of that child, but also making sure that we’re doing the right assessments for that child. So accessing things like speech and language, education psychology. The virtual school also work with the social worker for that child, as well, and what would the foster carer, so it’s quite an interesting role because you’re working with lots of different professionals, but in the virtual school your main thread is, is this child making academic progress? What are the barriers and how can we support the child? So that’s the critical point, really of a virtual school.

Kathleen Cushnie 5:11
It sounds… so in terms of, so you said that you may have children from the north of England and so on. So does every borough or every local authority have their own virtual school then?

Laverne 5:24
Yeah, it’s a statutory requirement. So every single local authority has a virtual head, and that person is named. The way that they support children might be different, but there is a virtual head. So that’s written down, it’s in blood, we will support every single looked after child.

Kathleen Cushnie 5:45
Okay, interesting because I don’t think many people know that. So there is actually someone (which is amazing.) Yeah. So, there is someone in every borough, looking after all responsible for all of the children within the schools in that borough, that are look after children?

Laverne 6:03
Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.

Kathleen Cushnie 6:05
Wow, that’s really, really interesting. Yeah. Okay. And so, alright so you’ve explained that very clearly to us.

Laverne 6:14
And I would add… sorry I was gonna jump in to add an extra bit… that every school should have a designated teacher for looked after children. Again that’s written in the statutory guidance as well.

Kathleen Cushnie 6:27
Yeah, yeah and that I know for sure that that’s definitely happening in schools, yeah. Okay, so we’ve clearly explained the virtual school so what’s the difference between virtual school and alternative provision?

Laverne 6:40
So my role in Alternative Provision, I kind of did a bit of alternative provision, then started doing the acting up as Virtual Head for looked after children, and then went back to Alternate Provision because I loved it so much. So, essentially, again, it’s a statutory requirement that any child that can’t access mainstream school has to be offered some form of alternative to a mainstream setting. So my role is to make sure that children that might have been excluded permanently. That might have medical needs. They might be new arrivals to the borough and haven’t got school place.

My role is to make sure that they access some form of education. So, usually outside of a mainstream setting that could be a small group setting, run by an independent alternative provider. It could be that they access, a one to one tutor, or sometimes it might be online learning, so it really does depend on the needs of that individual child. So for example you could have a child that has just had an operation, and they can’t get back into school, because they were in recovery, but you don’t want them to miss out on the learning that their peers will be having. So our role is to make sure that with the health professionals, we assess what the child is able to do, and we bring the education to them so they don’t miss out. (Very crucial.) That’s alternative provision.

Kathleen Cushnie 8:07
And why would you say that your work is valuable Laverne?

Laverne 8:10
So for me, I can talk about the personal. For me the reason I’m so passionate about it, particularly for children with medical needs because when I was in school, I had an operation, and I missed out, and there wasn’t anyone going well, we need to make sure that she catches up, or, you know, we need to maybe bring a tutor to our home. So that’s a big chunk of education, thatt I missed out on, I can’t necessarily get that back. But what I can do is make sure that with that passion and with that insight, I can make sure that other children in that situation, have the right provision in place, and a seen in that way. I don’t know if that answers your actual question though.

Kathleen Cushnie 8:52
No, of course, it answers my question, why is your work valuable? So I know why it’s valuable to you, because you’ve experienced that so you know the importance of doing your role and why that service is needed in schools and education possible. Yeah, because it, to be honest, really, you having that experience makes means that really in your leadership, I’m sure you make sure things happen for the children. Is that something that you’re really passionate about as well?

Laverne 9:19
Yeah, I could, I could… and what’s brilliant about my area of work, is that everybody I come across. There’s such a deep level of passion. And there’s a perseverance, and there’s a creativity, because we really believe that every child should have the opportunity to make progress. And so I’ve got as much energy for this, you know, and that’s why when I did the Virtual Head role. I ended up deciding not to continue with that, but to focus on Alternative Provision because I could really see that I could have an impact in that area. So yeah, I think the whole sector. We’re just really passionate about what we do and we’re always trying to find solutions to problems, and I love working in that type of environment.

Kathleen Cushnie 10:09
And just saying, you know, just going to just hone in on the point that you made. So you worked as a Virtual Head, and then you realise that you know I’ve really got a passion for Alternative Provision and decided to give up that role and go back to Alternate Provision. And the reason that I’m pointing that out, is sometimes people are reluctant to give up a title or a status in order to follow their passions. So, you have done that so tell us the reasons why you decided to do it and what impact that you think that’s had on you?

Laverne 10:41
Yeah, I mean, this was like a big, it was a big issue for a lot of people, because your Virtual Head, you know, you can train…you can, I was acting up, so you know I was kind of learning, essentially. My background I don’t have a teacher qualification. My background is, youth and community work, and careers guidance, so you know I kind of…. there was elements of me that thought, well, I’m not a teacher. It was that imposter syndrome, to a degree, but I was doing really well at it, and I could have continued. Because you don’t have to be a teacher to do that role. But I realised when I was doing it, that there is so many people that you need to influence, to come up with a solution which is which is great. And I suppose that’s probably an area of strength for me, but to really make a big change on the scale that I want to do. In that role, I couldn’t do that. And also, I think, because I started off in Alternative Provision, and had quite a vision for what it could be. I felt I could really achieve that. So, I, it’s ironic actually because the person in the role now. I was her manager, and then she became my manager, and we laugh about that because it’s such a strange set of circumstances, but my focus was on the future, as opposed to the now, and I’m so glad. I’m so glad that I focused on the vision for Alternative Provision because I can now do that I can now actually make such a difference.

Kathleen Cushnie 12:25
Okay and we’re just gonna go back to that point that you made about you being a Virtual School Head, and then that you decided because you’ve had experience in Alternative Provision, and that you are passionate about is that you decided to go back. Now, the reason I’m picking that out is because it’s so important sometimes when people are in the role, they think, ‘Oh, I’ve got to stay in that role because of the status,‘ and that they may find that if they go sideways, or I don’t like to use the word backwards, but back to a role that they were passionate about was almost as if they do in some ‘career suicide’ or something like that. So can you speak to us a bit more about why, why you did that, and how you’re feeling about your decision now? Was it the right decision? I mean, what is the right decision. I mean there’s a lot to unpack there so tell us why you know why you did…

Laverne 13:14
Well I think for me, it was definitely the right decision because I am passionate about alternative provision, and that’s the area that I want to have an impact. So, I’m, you know as much as I enjoyed…I dunno can you enjoy being a Virtual Head I suppose you can enjoy elements of it. It’s a really tough role and Alternative Provision is really tough in a different way, but I think for me the ability, the ability to influence was very different, as a, as a Virtual Head. I think you’re. I suppose you’re, you’re making a difference to individual children’s lives and you’re planning across a huge cohort, a really large cohort in some local authorities.

Alternative Provision, I think there’s so many areas that are being developed right now, that for me to be in the position that I’m in, I can help to shape that. So just as an example, there’s an all parliamentary group that’s looking at the quality of Alternative Provision at the moment, and I can be part of that, you know, supporting the consultations, looking at how we can measure the quality of Alternative Provision that’s all happening right now. There’s loads of stuff around Alternative Provision now when I go into Twitter we’ve got a hashtag #ThisisAP, so anyone interested, you know, use that you can have a look at what’s out there. And there’s so many providers and commissioners, like myself, that are writing about Alternative Provision and sharing all of the amazing work that happens in the sector.

So I think for my role, you know, I get to work with alternative providers, head teachers that are delivering alternative provision. I get to be really creative because every single family is different. I get to work with parents and carers, so I’m still working with looked after children, there’s just so much to the role, so I think for me I focused on the passion, and I’ll always do that in my career. I’ve done so many upwards, downwards, sideways, that’s just kind of how things work, and actually I would mention, and I was always going to mention Krumboltz, but one of the things that I learned when I did my careers guidance qualification was around, actually just being curious and sometimes just taking, taking a risk, but really importantly, thinking about in your career, what would be fun to do next? There’s a question that he always asked: What would be fun to do next? And to enjoy your role is, is quite rare. So for me, I knew I enjoyed alternative provision, I knew I could have an impact. And so here I am, and I’m absolutely loving it!

Kathleen Cushnie 15:57
It’s great to hear that you’re loving your work. Again there was a few things, that you said that to love your role is quite rare, and I don’t know, I think that many people believe that when you’re working, to love your role is quite aware but I know that there were many people, many educators particularly, that go into work and and get a buzz of real passion out of knowing that they’re helping young people. So yeah, think about that statement, it could be debatable, but I just want to also pick up on you said that you’ve had a varied career working with young people. So, and you’re passionate. So in terms of your passion, you’ve worked with young people in various different aspects mainstream, that virtual school, like you saying, alternative provision. What has been the most fulfilling for you?

Laverne 16:47
Oh that’s a really good question. What’s been the most fulfilling? I think for me, the most fulfilling aspect of the roles I would say, is working with working directly with young people and their parents. Actually, you know, in my role as a manager, I don’t get the opportunity as much to work directly with the children. But when I do, I come alive, even more, because I’m actually getting to hear the direct voice of the young person. And I’m hearing the direct voice of the parent. So I would say that’s the element that I will, you know, Always really love.

I do some voluntary work as well, supporting adults through Christians Against Poverty, it’s a job club, so actually getting the opportunity to work one to one with with people talking about their life experiences and trying to support them. I absolutely love that! And there’s other elements of my role that I really love, doing finance, you know, being creative with with solutions and looking at problems in different ways, and having to come up with solutions quite quickly. I love doing that.

Kathleen Cushnie 17:57
And well in terms of all of those different roles, then it seems like a lot of them you, you are a leader. So, what does leadership mean to you?

Laverne 18:06
I think for me, leadership is having a vision for maybe something that doesn’t exist yet, and bringing other people along with you on that vision, and helping them to see what you can see, but also doing that in a way that works for them as individuals, as well. We’ve all got different learning styles. We’ve all got different gifts that we bring to the table. So working with those individuals, and maybe developing, bringing out those gifts, so that they can help towards that vision, and maybe they might shape that vision as well. And you can say, ‘Brilliant! I haven’t seen that. Come on, let’s let’s work with that.’ So for me, leadership is about a vision and I think in my career, I started off doing the one to one, then I moved to more of a management team leader type role. And then I started to develop (and still developing,) much more about the vision for the future. The bit that people can’t see yet. So it’s a journey. It’s a journey.

Kathleen Cushnie 19:09
When you’re saying about you know the vision that you can’t see yet, I think when you’re thinking about growth and a journey. When you’re truly growing, it’s, it’s an extension of where you currently are. So in order to grow, you have to go somewhere where you’ve never been before. And like you were saying, trying to get others to see the journey is an important part of leadership. I think it’s one that I think a lot of people when they go into leadership are quite unsure about. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you’ve approached change and and leadership in terms of inspiring or influencing others on a journey along the way?

Laverne 19:50
I think for me, because I’ve got an information, advice and guidance, kind of background which sounds quite wordy, but it’s all about kind of those counselling skills and I’ve got a counselling qualification. So for me it’s always been about my own reflection, actually. And that reflective practice. So that’s, that’s, for me, reflective practice is everything. If you can’t look at things that you might have got wrong. If you can’t be open minded and be open with people when you’ve got it wrong, you know, I got it wrong. Then that Leadership isn’t necessarily going to come easily. So for me the critical thing is, has always been about being able to reflect and also being able to listen and hear what people are saying and take on board what they’re saying, with an open mind. Essential. You know there’s there’s different styles isn’t there.

Kathleen Cushnie 21:04
Well, yeah the listening…

Laverne 21:07
Yeah, and I’ve seen people in leadership roles where they view themselves as the leader as saying right, you’re going to do this you’re going to do that. You know, that does not work, necessarily, and they struggle to take on feedback, and use it. So, listening, reflecting using people’s skill set, developing people, motivating people. You know you can’t get to your vision, as a leader if people are not motivated, you’ve got to understand what motivates them. And work with that.

Kathleen Cushnie 21:45
Yeah you’re right! So tell me how do you motivate people?

Laverne 21:52
So I think my starting point is to listen and understand. I know I keep saying the same thing but a lot of things come down to that. Listen and understand what they see. So, if we’ve got, I don’t know a new project or a different kind of direction of travel. I’ll always ask my team what they think, because they’re going to have a different angle to this problem, very different angles. So, I think, what helps to motivate people, is actually being heard, and some of their ideas are amazing, I couldn’t even I couldn’t even imagine them myself. You know, you feel motivated when you are heard. And when someone says, ‘Great idea, let’s go with it.’ And the thing I always say with my team is, ‘It’s okay to make a mistake is absolutely fine, we’ll figure it out. But let’s be creative. Let’s try this.’ So, motivating people also is creating a climate where people feel safe, they feel safe to be creative. They feel safe to share their voice. And that I think is motivating. I know that’s not theory X and Y but that’s my version!

Kathleen Cushnie 23:14
It’s a great version Laverne, I mean, you say, you know, it’s not theory X and Y, but you know it’s real life, I agree completely with you creating a climate where people feel safe. When people feel safe, they’re able to feel that they can add, contribute and then grow. And I think again it’s going back to that point where, you know, if, if you can only grow if you try new things. You can only grow if you move from where you are. You are not going to grow, the situation that you’re in is not going to grow if you don’t take that step.

And it is going to be uncomfortable, you know, so I think as a leader, what you’re saying, listening is crucial, allowing people to feel heard, is crucial, listening to their ideas, motivates them, then they’re going to be more likely actually then to contribute.

Another thing that you said that I think’s really, really important is to the value in the skills that, and the different skills that different people within the team may bring to the table, because it’s true. We all see things through different lens. And, you know, you may have overlooked or just been blind…blindsided to something that you haven’t seen before because that’s not the way that you look at it, and again that this highlights the importance of different perspectives and that we are all valuable, all of the time. Yeah, I just like thanks for really highlighting that point I think it’s such such an important point to make, especially the point of the value of being heard. So talking about all of these various different things that you’ve experienced, what would you say is the toughest lesson that you’ve experienced that has enabled your personal growth?

Laverne 24:54
What’s been the toughest? I would say the toughest experience that supported my growth was when my job was cut. My original job that I had working as a Connexions Manager there was an old, a service called Connexions that supported young people and that’s kind of how I how I started off in working in Southwark and the funding was cut; it was a national thing. And my job was gone and I trained as a career advisor. So, you know, that was really difficult because I was really enjoying what I was doing, but I was faced with this option of Alternative Provision, or find something else and I had no clue what Alternative Provision was. I just had not a clue.

And, you know, I spoke to people, I learned more about it, I got the role, and I was really fortunate enough to have an amazing leader. I would describe her as, who was so supportive of my journey, I could say to her, Liz. I don’t know what I’m doing, and she’d say so right come on, she took me into a meeting room, and she’d, allow me to just say, ‘I don’t know what I’m doing!’ And have that moment of panic, you know, because I was completely new I was a novice, and we learned together.

So for me, that in between of job being cut and landing this role, that was frightening. That was probably my scariest moment because it was not safe. I didn’t know if I was going to be successful. I knew it was a really important role, and I knew I had to learn it pretty quickly. So, you know, I would say that was probably my, my scariest moment I could have left and found a job in as a careers advisor somewhere else but I decided to, as I always do, take a risk, and just do something completely random that I know nothing about, and figure it out and I was really fortunate to have somebody there that was able to go on this journey with me.

Kathleen Cushnie 27:03
Fantastic. I mean, again, it goes to show that having a supportive leader enables people to grow because you felt comfortable, you had that safe space. And that enabled you to grow and, you know, become the person that you are, successful and move on to all these different things. And what’s really crucial there is that that was your first role in Alternative Provision, look at your passion now. I mean how crucial was that. So I mean, you know, these little, little steps that we’ve taken along the journey we never know how, how they’re gonna end up, and what they may blossom into so I mean, again it just highlights how supporting each other…the impact that that can have on somebody’s career or impact on that person, it’s not all about the career really is it? We are the people and we are in careers but we are the people that are leading others. It’s all about people and connections, really. So what advice would you give an educator wanting to pursue a pathway, not say similar to yours but I would say, pursuing a pathway in Alternative Provision, let’s say, what advice would you give to an educator?

Laverne 28:13
So I suppose my advice would be, to go out and actually talk to alternative providers. If you can, you know, I would really, really, really encourage, in general, teachers working in a mainstream setting to go out to the pupil referral unit, to learn the environment and the specialisms that are held within a pupil referral unit, or an alternative provision. You know, I think, going out and actually seeing it is, is critical. The other thing I would say is, is that alternative provision, the idea of it is, it’s specialist. It’s bespoke it’s about the individual child it’s about their needs. So really having a passion for the individual needs of the child, wanting to understand them, and plan around that child is really important. So, you know, just just learning, learning about what can impact a child and how those different things can disrupt their education really trying to understand what some of those things are. So things like for example, you know, being involved in negative peer groups, It could be, like I mentioned earlier, having a hospital admission. It could be family breakdown, it could be a mental health need really trying to understand what are the barriers to education. And I think that applies to whether you’re working in an AP or in a mainstream school, I’d really encourage mainstream schools to really understand that arena, because I think it’s about working together, you know, APs, schools, you might flow into AP and flow back into mainstream school at different times, we really need to be working together.

Kathleen Cushnie 30:02
You’ve really made me think about the point that you’re making about working together because I think sometimes we work in our own little boxes. So Alternative Provision is over there, you know, Social Services are over there, Educational Psychologists over there, and we’re in school, and we kind of work in our own separate boxes. And you know like children, you know, okay I’m gonna refer this child, that child gets passed back there’s a lot more. And I think the joined up thinking really does need to happen. Yes it does…apparently happen on paper, but I think we really do need that joined up thinking and like you’re saying, you know, working on alternative provision or working in mainstream, if we all had experiences or insights even (because you know maybe it might be difficult to move into different roles). If we had insights into the different provisions that are available in order to support our young people so the same young people. And I think that may change the way that we deal with certain situations. There’s a really, really important point that you’ve made their Laverne. Thank you!

All right, so we’re going to come into the end now. So you’ve mentioned Krumboltz. You love him a lot. So can you tell us, you may mention him, you may not. But what’s the best resource that has helped you along your journey? What’s the best resource what’s the, what’s the thing, the one thing that you always refer back to that you listen to maybe a book or maybe a podcast may be, you know, a certain person that you may watch on YouTube? What’s the…who inspires you and what’s the best resource that you’ve helped you along your journey?

Laverne 31:39
I’m gonna have to say Krumboltz! And I have to say it because I just think that, whatever journey you all in your career, there are certain things, skills, attributes that you that you should just keep open to. So Krumholtz talks about curiosity. He talks about persistence. He talks about flexibility, optimism, and risk taking. They’re the key things he talks about and I think every stage in my career, I’ve always come back to those points. Being curious essential, as a leader, essential as you progress your career. And also, you know that that thing about being persistent. If you’re moving into a new area, or you’re moving into middle leadership, or senior management. You’re basically the person in the room that doesn’t know as much as everyone else that’s pretty scary, but you have to persevere with that and just keep an open mind really listen and learn to what’s around you to help build yourself up.

So I would say that Krumboltz, he’s got a book called, ‘Luck No Accident’ where he talks about developing these skills. And you know when an opportunity comes your way, you’ve developed those skills and you can then take that opportunity. The other thing that he talks about is failing fast and failing often, you know, it’s okay to get it wrong. And actually he encourages you to try things, get it wrong, and learn from it. That’s been the most influential person, I would say.

Kathleen Cushnie 33:26
Fantastic, thank you for sharing those with us. And so as we come to the end, I’m going to ask you, three deep dive statements, and I’m going to throw in a random question there for you. So all you’ve got to do is finish the statement, okay. You don’t really need to think about what comes to your head is the most important thing. So, being successful means…

Laverne 33:33
…working hard and keeping your integrity.

Kathleen Cushnie 33:54
Keeping your integrity Laverne. Oh my God! Keeping your integrity. Let’s just pause for a moment because that is so important. I think we’ve given it enough respect. Right, my voice is important because…

Laverne 34:11
…I have valuable things to share.

Kathleen Cushnie 34:15
Yeah, and full stop. That’s it!

Kathleen Cushnie 34:20
The education system needs….

Laverne 34:24
…Oh, joined up working, and child first thinking.

Kathleen Cushnie 34:30
Oh my god I love it! Child FIRST thinking. Again….Let’s give it a moment. Child FIRST thinking. Do you know what actually isn’t that not why, you know, everybody that works with children and young people go into whatever role they’re in? Whether it’s in school, whether it’s a social worker, you know, educational psychologists, surely the child first thinking must be at the core of every decision that you make sure, surely!? So, yes, I want to clap that. Yep. Fantastic! Education needs that. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!

Right, last one random question. An abundant amount of confidence and support has been delivered to your door Laverne. You only have the rights to distribute one, which one do you choose?

Laverne 35:26
Confidence!

Kathleen Cushnie 35:28
Because?

Laverne 35:29
Oh, because!? Because…I think that’s how you help to influence other people.

Kathleen Cushnie 35:40
Wow, I can’t, I can’t let you say that and just leave it there in this interview. Right confidence because? Go on, please elaborate on that, this needs elaboration.

Laverne 35:52
Because I think when you’re thinking about your vision. Usually, you’ve ruminated on this vision in your own head for some time, and it takes that confidence to describe something that other people can’t see. To describe that, and to bring people on that journey with you.

Kathleen Cushnie 36:14
You’re right! You’re right. I’m just thinking about sometimes you’re so passionate about something, and you really want to get it all out, but if you don’t have the confidence it may not translate as well as it could. And that can be detrimental in terms of your idea or whatever it is being taken forward or the vision or whatever it is. That is such a good thing to think about. Thank you so much. So Laverne. You have been wonderful. Thank you for joining us. And, I mean there’s so much there to take. I think this is one of those episodes where you may need to listen to it twice because there are little things in there that you may come back to and think, and just reflect on. So thank you very much. You’ve been a fantastic guest, and thank you for joining us on Voicing Education.

Laverne 37:04
Thank you for inviting me.

Kathleen Cushnie 37:07
Thank you so much for listening. I hope you were inspired and gained some insight, which can help you as you progress on your journey. Do share your key takeaways on social media, and let people know what resonated with you. Remember to tag me, I’d love to see your thoughts, and subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already. Thank you for being here. Until our next episode. Be safe, be well, but most importantly, keep growing. Remember, there is power in your voice, and it all starts with a conversation.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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